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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44

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    walle83


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    Post  walle83 Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:11 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:To WALLE83

    Don't talk nonsense, please...
    Before the start of SMO, the West wrote that Ukroshitstan has enough ATGMs to destroy EVERY SINGLE Russian tank.
    As far as I can see, and I can see well, we are already seeing the "hunting" of Western tanks on the territory of Ukroshitstan.

    Bradley with 25 mm ?
    Just to remind you that even the older "Kontakt-5" is not activated until it is hit by a caliber greater than 30 mm...

    "ERA does not detonate when hit by 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm bullets, fragments and 30 mm shells. VDZ has a higher resistance to high-explosive impact, compared to KnDZ."

    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/kontakt5_.htm




    Its been several videos with 30 mm shells stopping russian tanks. The ERA dont cover the whole tank, specially not in the rear.

    The Ukrainen tank and ifv looses is mostly to mines and artillery by the looks of it. They Russian dont dare attacking with thier own it seems.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:20 am

    I'll give you an example and then you judge for yourself.
    The Serbian tank M84 was created on the basis of the export (downgraded) tank T-72M.
    The armor on M84 tank is much weaker than the armor on Russian tanks and especially from the latest T-72B modifications that the Russians have massively improved in recent years with the installation of Relikt ERA..
    I think the Bradley has absolutely no chance of even penetrating the engine compartment of any Russian tank.

    BMP-3 and BMD-4 have a better chance against Leopard-2 than Bradley against Russian tanks.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:34 am

    Bro, like seriously? Laughing
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:41 am

    ALAMO wrote:Bro, like seriously? Laughing

    100 mm vs 25 mm....

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:57 am

    I mean you arguing with a zoo exhibit Laughing

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:01 am

    ALAMO wrote:I mean you arguing with a zoo exhibit Laughing

    Sorry brother ALAMO, it won't happen again... Very Happy

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:12 am

    Russians With Attitude
    @RWApodcast
    ·
    57m

    All these villages and fields north of the fortifications exist to let RuAF do damage while pulling back - that's literally their only purpose. IMO the next phase will begin around Staromlynovka - RuAF will try to bait AFU into sending in their reserves and overcommit; AFU will have to decide on a general direction for their offensive after passing Staromlynovka & confront the actual Russian defences head-on, 5-10km south of Staromlynovka.

    Re: the Ukrainian offensive - AFU efforts on Axis 1 seem to have died down for now; heavy fighting continues on Axis 2. The area marked in orange is where fighting is currently heaviest, the red line is the first Russian defensive line.

    In the coming days and weeks, many of the settlements north of the proper Russian defensive line will change hands several times - many of them are in hard to impossible to defend locations, on low ground, thus making entrenchment unlikely & staying in these places just a big welcome sign to enemy artillery. The Ukrainians entering a village or the Russians kicking the Ukrainians out of a village should be treated with far less excitement on either side than is currently happening. The battle won't be decided by AFU entering Blagodatnoye or RuAF retaking Makarovka.

    AncientVult
    @AncientVult
    ·
    32m
    Also those areas are only defended by skirmishers… it’s really shocking that the main Ukrainian fists are being defeated by lightly armed troops

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 FyfI0aSWIAEyANS?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:14 am

    We can be certain that non of these 22 were on secondment recently in say Ukraine and got to the "higher care facilities" ahead of the others Very Happy

    Joshua Landis
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    3h
    22 US soldiers wounded in #Syria when their helicopter crashed.

    It is believed to be a mechanical failure or pilot error.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 FyeFtSwWcAI9YmJ?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  Hole Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:15 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Fyfrun10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Scree730
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Scree731
    Lot of dead bodies around that pile of sh...

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:43 am

    ayden
    @squatsons
    ·
    12h
    Current AFU objective is to capture the hill and the fortified area around Rivnopil.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Fyc5Ak1aAAA79kC?format=jpg&name=small

    ikael Valtersson
    @MikaelValterss1
    ·
    8h
    No need to attack them from the sides. Rivnopil (4) has just one small supplyroad. The grey zone was just 1 km from that road. Attack it and the russian forces must retreat or be operationally encircled. If they retreat, they must retreat at least 4km to the south to the white line. Logistics will be bad in the middle here to, with no roads at all. In worst case the russian forces have to withdraw another 2-3 km, at least in the middle.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Fyd0b-DWAAY9IZn?format=jpg&name=small
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:57 am

    June 13, 10:41
    Military operation in Ukroshitstan
    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation showed a video of Leopard and Bradley captured by Russian troops

    According to the agency, some equipment went to the RF Armed Forces in fully operational condition.


    MOSCOW, 13 June. /TASS/. Servicemen of the Vostok group of forces seized German Leopard tanks and US-made Bradley infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) in the Zaporozhye direction. Some captured equipment went to the Russian military in a fully working condition.

    "Some combat vehicles are with running engines, which indicates the transience of the battle and the flight of the crews of combat vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from combat-ready equipment," the Russian Defense Ministry said, which circulated the corresponding video on Tuesday.

    The footage shows how servicemen inspect enemy tanks and infantry fighting vehicles captured in battle. At the same time, all the captured equipment is of Western production.

    The Leopard-2 tank is considered one of the most modern battle tanks on the world arms market, but it is very demanding on maintenance.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17993427

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    Post  Hole Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:04 pm

    Geranium UAV and missile strikes hit enemy targets in Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye and Kharkov regions tonight

    Aircraft operated against the enemy in Kherson, Zaporozhye and South Donetsk Regions.

    The main strike struck in places where AFU reserves were located.

    For example, the missile paid a late visit to the command and control post of a battalion of the 68th AFU brigade in the DPR.

    In Kharkov region, there is an ammunition depot less.

    An S-300 SAM system radar station was dismantled in Dnepropetrovsk Region.

    In Kryvoy Rog, an AFU air defence hit a residential apartment block, causing flats from the first to the fifth floors to catch fire.

    A private enterprise was also hit here. But we are all well aware that this is not a "private" enterprise.

    One of the strikes hit an armoured vehicle base and repair site.

    Slavyangrad

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    Post  Hole Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:13 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Fyfleh10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Fyfovw10
    This is the "town" that changed hands a few times in the last days.
    West is desperate if that small village makes headlines.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Jun 13, 2023 12:19 pm

    The next signing of contracts between the Russian Defense Ministry and the commanders of the volunteer corps took place on Tuesday, June 13. According to the representative of the department, Lieutenant General Vladimir Alekseev, three brigades and four detachments signed contracts to perform combat missions.

    "I am sure that within the next week all formations and other formations that are part of the volunteer corps will sign this contract," Vladimir Alekseev stressed after signing the contracts.

    This document regulates not only the activities of volunteers, but also applies to their family members who can receive social protection and support measures established by the state.

    "For us, this is an indicator, the state and the Ministry of Defense have noticed us, they respect and appreciate us. We are fulfilling all the tasks assigned to us, and this is very important and significant for us, " said the commander of the volunteer detachment with the call sign Box.

    The day before, the Defense Ministry and the Akhmat volunteer unit signed the first such contract. The document was signed by Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, Colonel-General Alexey Kim, and Director of the Russian Special Forces University Adam Dashaev.

    Earlier, on June 10, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu signed an order that will determine the procedure for organizing the official activities of volunteer organizations and give them the necessary legal status for social protection and support measures established by the state. Contracts must be signed before July 1 of this year.

    https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/ru-en.en.fd29f796-648840fe-c76d5a9e-74722d776562/https/iz.ru/1527403/2023-06-13/minoborony-podpisalo-novye-kontrakty-s-dobrovolcheskimi-otriadami

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    Post  Kiko Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:22 pm

    Russian armed Forces seize German Leopard tanks from Ukrainian Army, 06.13.2023.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — The Russian Armed Forces seized American Bradley fighting vehicles and German Leopard-2A6 tanks as a result of fighting with Ukrainian troops, the Russian Defence Ministry reported.

    "The servicemen of the units of the Vostok grouping inspect the enemy tanks and combat vehicles captured in the combat. All the captured vehicles are of Western manufacture, the German Leopard tanks and the American Bradley fighting vehicles," the military entity points out, publishing a video with the captured military equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

    Yandex Translate from Spanish

    https://sputniknews.lat/20230613/las-fuerzas-armadas-rusas-se-apoderan-de-tanques-alemanes-leopard-del-ejercito-ucraniano-1140496110.html

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:30 pm

    In many ways it would be logical for the Russians to drop back towards what are presumably the optimum defence lines rather than fight in the superficially ad hoc way they are doing now. Which would also suck in more Ukrainians as they were 'winning' or 'got them on the run'.

    Instead the Russian commanders seem to have decided (this may have been the actual plan all along, the defence lines being insurance/backup/feint) to not give the Ukrainians even a sniff of success and to destroy them both on the front lines and the marshaling areas behind it. It being better PR/less rub NATO noses in it to just do another Bukhmut type grinding rather than an overt crushing of an advance.

    This now to me will be an exercise in minimal overt disasters for NATO so the US doesn't have to hit the red button in panic. Softly softly catchee monkey as the say.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:34 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:June 13, 10:41
    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation showed a video of Leopard and Bradley captured by Russian troops

    According to the agency, some equipment went to the RF Armed Forces in fully operational condition.


    Now Kubinka and we can only wait for Challenger 2 (I hope not all will be burned down) and Abramz to join



    Arrow wrote:

    where's walle83 when you need him?!

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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:00 pm

    More Bradleys to come to Ukraina, according to the Pentagon. More stuff for Russian army to destroy and capture.  Very Happy

    https://www.rt.com/news/577945-pentagon-aid-package-ukraine/

    Pentagon will replace destroyed Ukrainian armor – US state media

    A new $325 million military assistance package will reportedly be announced at an upcoming NATO meeting

    The $325 million worth of equipment will include Stryker and Bradley armored vehicles that “can replace those damaged and destroyed in the Ukrainian counteroffensive currently underway,” defense sources told the US government-funded outlet on Monday.

    In addition to new armored vehicles, the new package will include munitions for National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS) and High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS), the sources said.

    ====

    A stupid question: with 325 mil. USD then how much vehicles of these weapons will be delivered ? Question Question Question Idea

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:10 pm

    And while Gunshipdemocarcy is wondering where Walle83 is, I'm wondering where that Nazi-loving asshole MR HD is...
    No pardon for the bastards who support the nazi blue-yellow vermin on this forum, no..



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    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:23 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:And while Gunshipdemocarcy is wondering where Walle83 is, I'm wondering where that Nazi-loving asshole MR HD is...
    No pardon for the bastards who support the nazi blue-yellow vermin on this forum, no..




    I thought the zoo master had asked you to not torment the "dumb" animals Twisted Evil

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:30 pm

    I know Franco, I know, but when a person obviously does not want to accept everything that is obvious, such as the causes of the conflict and the history of Ukroshitstan
    ,and still writes "I support Ukroshitstan in this fight" - then you cannot remain indifferent.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:59 pm

    There are some from Scandinavian countries, NOT ALL, who are deeply afraid of Russia

    It could be historic , those who want Scandinavian superiority do not like the Fact that Russia sent Charles away from Poltava and ended the swede empire

    Then you have Norwegian racists like Vidkun Quisling who were angry that Russia defeated the nazi axis - a brotherhood of those wannabe vikings with a sprinkle of the northern cousins in there

    Those are pretty pissed, like other neighbors about what has been achieved to make those states secondary in consideration to the security picture of Europe

    Now these bigots and butt hurt war mongers come with Gripens and Cv90s expecting a different result

    A pity that they, believe they must prove that they are the master race, and do away with the Slavic Mongoloid bolsheviks,

    We all know how it has ended for 1000 years

    But they constantly must be reminded

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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:14 pm

    Take a look at missile trajectory - all of them make a course correction after leaving the tube. Never heard that it is corrected missile system, so kind of surprised.

    They would want mine rockets to follow specific paths rather than random distribution so for instance they could concentrate mines down a road and cluster them either side of the road too.

    The first Smerch rockets had a gyro system... not to improve accuracy to point of aim but to keep the rockets closer together so they land closer together and give a better grouping of munitions or explosives.

    Our source in the Ukrainian President’s Office said that Tarnavsky reported to Zelensky about the loss of 30% of Western equipment in the first stage of the counteroffensive.

    Quite serious considering the small amount of forces they committed to each attack... they probably expected them to be more effective and for the Russians to be less effective.

    Real problem when you believe your own propaganda.

    The paranoid will think that this is Kiev sending in the cannon fodder and next will be the body of the properly trained troops in volumes to overwhelm the available fire power of the Russian forces present.

    Which would simply mean sending more bodies than the enemy has ready to fire ammo to achieve a breakthrough... desperate stuff.

    The Ka-52 like any Russian Attack Helicopter is unable to launch ATGMs or fit any APU (Launching Pad System) from the inner pylon. The reason is historically gathered experience from catastrophic launches of ATGMs colliding with the helicopter.

    Actually it has more to do with the angled rocket motors of ATGMs, otherwise rocket pods on the inner pylons would be worse.

    There have been issues with ATGMs launched from inner wing pylons causing engine surges as the gasses get sucked into the engines and cause engine stalls or surges, I have read of similar problems with Apaches with Hellfires on the inner wing pylons too, but AFAIK this has been dealt with in the new model Russian helicopters with their digital engine control systems...


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Mi-28n10

    Mi-28 can use LMURs to hot targets BVR.

    LMUR uses thermal optics but is not a heat seeker... we have seen footage of a LMUR being fired at a pontoon bridge but as the missile approached the target a BMP-2 was crossing the bridge and the operator shifted the target from the pontoon section to the vehicle crossing the pontoon bridge. We know because the same aircraft launched a second missile and the burning BMP-2 was visible on the bridge in the view of the second missile which hit a bridge section.

    Maybe AH64 apache will be a better aid to Ukraine than F16, although they will need fighters and air defense to protect those helicopters from RU aviation

    Apaches would not last very long at all... remember Kornet has a backup anti aircraft capacity that DIRCMS wont stop.... not to mention TOR and Pantsir and soon Sosna and even S-350 and late model BUK.

    Are you serious? lol. Maybe the Russians should use rockets with dirty water instead of themobarics lol.

    Apaches are a mature system that is capable, but it is very well known to be a hangar queen.

    In Desert Storm they got high availability rates by quadrupling the support hours and budget...

    Against old model MANPADS they are not bad, against a modern Russian air defence network they wont even bother.

    So far Russia has been quite effective at detecting marshalling points and hitting them. Perhaps this is why the attack has been so shambolic.

    Indeed and massive explosions earlier in cities across Ukraine suggest quite a few ammo and fuel dumps have been taken out... destroying a large warehouse with hundreds of vehicles takes a lot of bombs and missiles, but warehouses with fuel and ammo destroy themselves and are much easier.

    My only criticism is the are being a bit stingy with the number of bombs they drop when they have a juicy target. Only taking out 40-50% of the target vs eviscerating it completely. Maybe they are constrained in glide bombs or maybe its an error in target classsification, or maybe they do a second strike later. Not sure.

    Keep in mind that the Orcs have accurate long range artillery too... they just have no way of massing it up the way the Russians can... but groups of Russian forces can be targeted too, so they have to be aware as well.

    Like Regular already mentioned, currently the Mi-28N isn't a frontline ass kicker like Ka-52 and Mi-24 but a long range LMUR trebucheting all the stuff the front soldier can mark with a drone.

    The core advantage of the Mi-28 is it has serious armour... most attack helicopters the front glass is armoured... sometimes up to 23mm HE rounds, but side and top glass is not armoured at all... the Mi-28 cockpit glass will stop a 14.5mm HMG round fired from a distance of about 5 metres... don't know of any other helicopter that well armoured against such ammo.... there will be no Iraqi farmers shooting down Mi-28s with 303 rifles...

    This was only partly dealt with to keep the local critics happy, but these vehicles are still extremely vulnerable.

    Yeah, it is common sense.... take big vehicle with not very heavy armour and fill with ammo and fuel and troops and expose to enemy fire = barbecue special...

    But then it is the same for most BMP types that don't weight what tanks weigh.

    A whole platoon of the Armed Forces of Ukraine surrendered in the Avdiivka direction. The platoon commander of one of the 110th mechanized brigade units got in touch with the Russians. He wanted to save his personnel, since they had a lot of wounded, and their command refused to evacuate.

    After negotiations, the full unit of the AFU drove on IFVs to the Russian troops. Help was provided to the wounded.

    And when they get treated with respect they might start to think they are fighting for the wrong side...

    Keep watching and you will be rewarded. More than a Buk I suspect

    They mentioned hitting an S-300 battery... two hits on radar and command vehicles and then two hits on missile vehicles with secondary explosions... makes sense.

    Hell even the 25mm bushmaster cannon could stop a T-72 if they hit it in the right place.

    Within 1,000m from the side a 25mm bushmaster would be dangerous... but nothing like the dangerous a 125mm smoothbore is at any range to a Bradley.

    I remember the change in western publications.... in the 1980s a British magazine called Combat and Survival showed a picture of a Bradley launching a TOW and it said lethal to Soviet tanks to almost 4km. The same image in a French Raid magazine (excellent photos BTW) in the 1990s mentioned that the TOW was a capable missile but firing the subsonic wire dragging missile at a target firing back 125mm APFSDS at five times the speed of sound while having to remain stationary while guiding the missile would be risky.

    Before the start of SMO, the West wrote that Ukroshitstan has enough ATGMs to destroy EVERY SINGLE Russian tank.

    Yes, Javelin was a super missile with no Russian equivalent that was going to render Russian armour obsolete.

    Just shows how important tactics really are... and of course air control and artillery.

    The Leopard is just like the Tiger at Kursk. The wonderwaff that died.

    I would not make that comparison because the Tiger at Kursk was a serious problem and broke through defense lines the way the Leopard has not.

    Without the 152mm ISU vehicles and artillery the Tiger would have been a serious problem.... I seem to recall more broke down than were destroyed... they were seriously dangerous and really spurred development of the IS series and the T-34 with the 85mm gun...

    In comparison the Leopards are not even getting to the first lines of defence and are being designed in the spotting zone in front of their lines.

    This link was published by a German on the 9GAG network in March.
    Typically western, arrogant and rude, as if on the other side of the front are Neanderthals with stone tools.
    Underestimation seems to be innate...

    Even more so considering there are no Leopards that are native to Germany...

    Why were there restraints the begin with?

    Hearts and Minds...

    Winning the war means nothing if you lose the peace afterwards.

    The Ukrainen tank and ifv looses is mostly to mines and artillery by the looks of it. They Russian dont dare attacking with thier own it seems.

    Yeah, like the US forces in Desert Storm bravely fought Iraqi tanks from 20K ft with B-52s.

    In many ways it would be logical for the Russians to drop back towards what are presumably the optimum defence lines rather than fight in the superficially ad hoc way they are doing now. Which would also suck in more Ukrainians as they were 'winning' or 'got them on the run'.

    The depth defence is to absorb powerful attacks from very large forces that are concentrated into very small areas.

    These pin prick attacks should be dealt with using light mobile forces and air power and also drones and artillery to blunt their attacks and probes and wait for the real attacks if they ever come.

    Enemy forces wanting to surrender should be given every chance to do so as that saves ammo for use against the hard core nazis.

    Instead the Russian commanders seem to have decided (this may have been the actual plan all along, the defence lines being insurance/backup/feint) to not give the Ukrainians even a sniff of success and to destroy them both on the front lines and the marshaling areas behind it

    Or is it a challenge to say if you want to advance you need to commit all of your forces or you wont get the propaganda push you crave for your masters... and when they do mass up then they can be hammered by rocket artillery and air power and the Russian forces in position waiting for their attack.

    I know Franco, I know, but when a person obviously does not want to accept everything that is obvious, such as the causes of the conflict and the history of Ukroshitstan
    ,and still writes "I support Ukroshitstan in this fight" - then you cannot remain indifferent.

    Yes, it changes the description of the animal from dumb (perhaps viewed as naive or innocent) to calculated and evil supporter of nazis... in Kiev and the west.

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    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44

    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:31 pm

    June 13, 15:26
    Putin awarded the 59th artillery brigade the honorary name "Guards"
    The President of Russia noted the mass heroism and courage, resilience and courage of its personnel in combat operations

    MOSCOW, 13 June. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin conferred the honorary name "Guards" to the 59th Sivash Red Replacement Command Brigade, the corresponding decree was published on Tuesday on the official portal of legal information.

    “For mass heroism and courage, steadfastness and courage shown by the personnel of the brigade in combat operations to protect the Fatherland and state interests in armed conflicts, I decide: to assign the honorary name “Guards” to the 59th control brigade,” the document says.

    The 59th Sivash Red Banner Communications Command Brigade is deployed in the city of Verkhnyaya Pyshma, Sverdlovsk Region. The division's tasks include managing systems and means of telegraph and telephone, satellite and tropospheric communications, as well as IT technologies.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17996347




    June 13, 14:31
    Putin awarded the 165th artillery brigade the honorary name "Guards"
    The head of state noted "mass heroism and courage, resilience and courage shown by the personnel of the brigade in combat operations to protect the Fatherland and state interests in armed conflicts"

    MOSCOW, 13 June. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin conferred the honorary name "Guards" to the 165th Artillery Brigade, the corresponding decree was published on Tuesday on the official portal of legal information.

    “For mass heroism and courage, fortitude and courage shown by the personnel of the brigade in combat operations to protect the Fatherland and state interests in armed conflicts, I decide: to assign the honorary name “Guards” to the 165th artillery brigade,”
    the document says.

    The 165th Prague Red Banner Artillery Brigade, Orders of Kutuzov and Bogdan Khmelnitsky, was formed in 1944. Currently stationed in Belogorsk, Amur Region. It is armed with Uragan multiple launch rocket systems, 152 mm Msta-B howitzers, and Shturm-S anti-tank systems.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17995907

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    Tolstoy
    Tolstoy


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44 - Page 19 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #44

    Post  Tolstoy Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:32 pm

    -


    Last edited by Tolstoy on Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total

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