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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #51

    Regular
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    Post  Regular Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:36 pm

    [quote="PapaDragon"]
    Backman wrote:....

    Are you serious here?

    What results are you talking about? Russia wasn't taking anything on, they were just prancing around like complete  idiots

    They didn't perform any artillery preparation, they didn't carry out mass airstrikes, they didn't take out any strategic infrastructure and they didn't neutralize enemy manpower

    They didn't even bother to form a proper frontline, instead they just drove in long convoys straight into obvious ambushes and stopped every time they would run into some random civilians instead of driving right through them

    In the end they all got what they deserved when Ukrainians ambushed and assraped them all

    They disrespected Good Lord Darwin and for their stupidity the Good Lord Darwin smote them down from their insolence

    Good Lord Darwin suffers no retards








    Ok, what about the south? Ukrs folded south like they were paper, north axis didn’t work and clearly it was political rather military decision. That stage of war didn’t last long. It wasn’t the destruction of Russian military that stopped these as you make it sound.

    Still, this is just another stage of this war, if it will continue further on, there will be couple shifts as the time goes on. And it won’t be in favour of UA/NATO

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:34 pm

    Did anyone notice what shoigu said related to Ukro casualties?

    384,000 dead and wounded

    Meaning it isn't as high as some are saying

    Same goes for Russia, the amounts are now confirmed as lower than mediazona is reporting

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:36 pm

    Oooops. More data for the War Crimes Commission no doubt.

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:04 pm

    Another with a wish to have a target on his back! From Rada speech

    Ukrainian MP: I have money, but I will not share it with the army

    The Ukrainian MP Nikolay Tishchenko has once again made a "camming-out" that shows the common opinion of all members of the Kiev Nazi regime regarding the Russian-Ukrainian conflict:

    "I have a car fleet worth $2 million, but I am not obliged to give the money to the Armed Forces of Ukraine".

    While Ukrainians are dying for the regime of Nazis and corrupt officials, such MPs are filling their pockets and openly saying so.

    @ukraine_watch

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:14 pm

    Another of my 'big bangs'. Interesting video.

    Strike the leader! Wonder what went through the minds of the drivers of the two tanks behind, another in the field behind? a pair of S-300 tubes in the background?

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:29 pm

    Good weather for this type of action. Anti drone cloud cover.

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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:29 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Did anyone notice what shoigu said related to Ukro casualties?

    384,000 dead and wounded

    Meaning it isn't as high as some are saying

    Same goes for Russia, the amounts are now confirmed as lower than mediazona is reporting

    Let's hope this is BS because if true then this entire war is just another historic Russian fuckup

    This number should be low-ball of confirmed Ukr KIAs not the whole fuckin total

    Russians do love repeating Winter War it seems...



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    Post  Regular Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:51 pm

    Is vodka clouding your vision, Comrade Papa? Moaning like an old babushka for a whole year, and suddenly, a revelation strikes?
    Ok, majority were unhappy by how this was/is going, but let’s not turn it in masochism.

    Analysis is not to skimming the headlines, scratching the surface, that is what differs people from residents and tourist.

    Regards counting casualties and guesstimating there are Twitter accounts and Lostarmor doing that for long time.

    Dead officers, dead soldiers. Both lists are incomplete and lagging, but you get the gist. You can multiply COs to get the broad picture, see the trends how KIAs increase and you will understand the scale.

    https://lostarmour.info/ukr200

    https://lostarmour.info/officers

    After all, this is a chess match, not a slam dunk contest.

    It’s not winter war, why the **** you come up with this comparison? Winters war was also short and Finland folded. It wasn’t a grind like what it is now


    Last edited by Regular on Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:57 pm

    Casualties are quit impossible to figure out for Ukraine.

    First, they just send whatever they find available on the streets.

    A lot of the population ran away from Ukraine towards the west.

    Russians use heavily artillery without having real time recording of all the hits.

    Frontlines haven't moved a lot so russians can really count ukro deads.

    Many are dead for long time so there is hardly anuthing left from their bodies.

    Russians numbers aren't right. It could be bullshit to play some propaganda game or just the official number of what they have as intel, they certainly don't have intel on all the casualties. By intel I mean graveyard counters, report from drone operators, radio interception...

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:16 pm

    Can anyone think of a better strategy of showing Europe that Russia is not interested in moving further west after the SMO is over than this?

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    Post  Regular Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:19 pm

    Isos wrote:Casualties are quit impossible to figure out for Ukraine.

    Yes, it’s hard. But who counts them now? Internet autists, snipers, drone teams. And Russian MOD, do they need to count in same way? Of course not. Ukrainians do this for them: HUMIT and hacking

    First, they just send whatever they find available on the streets.
    Honestly, these KIAs are easiest to count. Because family members, memorial services and obituaries pop out. The fresher recruited, the more trace he will have.

    A lot of the population ran away from Ukraine towards the west.
    Yes, but don’t see how it relates to KIAs. That’s the problem for UA recruiters.

    Russians use heavily artillery without having real time recording of all the hits.
    No one counts dead people during arty observation mission, its not COIN. Battle damage assessment against infantry is not a priority: Russian artillery does perform quick ad-hoc fire missions in certain areas that have killzones (Robitino, Artyomovsk, etc), but it’s rarely blind nowadays.

    Frontlines haven't moved a lot so russians can really count ukro deads.
    They did move quite a bit recently, haha. No fanfares, but that’s how it should be, unlike Ukrs, best not to be pre-emptive. But no one meticulously counts these dead fuckers when they take over new territory. There are better more important things to do. When Russians will retake Robotino, dead not extracted Ukrainians will be already mixed with the dirt, you will need exhumation to count this, so after the war only. Don’t expect some Ivan with a shovel and DNA kit.

    Many are dead for long time so there is hardly anuthing left from their bodies.
    Yes, already videos from soldiers who retook some Artyomovsk positions and they walk on flat clothing, dirt and crushed bones. Probably these are MIAs.

    Russians numbers aren't right. It could be bullshit to play some propaganda game or just the official number of what they have as intel, they certainly don't have intel on all the casualties. By intel I mean graveyard counters, report from drone operators, radio interception...

    Absolutely. Lol, I think they just make things up as they undercounted IFVs. Russian MOD has no need to give correct numbers. They have no need to tell the truth. They know much more than us, but like with combat footage, they don’t care sharing with us. They don’t tell so many things that it angers me as I am interested and smell bullshit they peddle lol1
    I am still happy that they suck not in the same way as Ukrainian MOD with their reports. 1200 KIA Russians per day lol1 when there is cloudy weather, **** all is happening, more casualties than during clear weather when there was a push. Haha


    Last edited by Regular on Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Kiko Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:22 pm

    Ukraine is losing to Russia on all fronts, says the commander of the Ukrainian Armed Forces battalion, 12.19.2023.

    Ukrainian Armed Forces battalion commander Kirill Veres: Ukraine is losing to Russia on all fronts.

    MOSCOW, December 19 – RIA Novosti. Ukraine is losing in the conflict with the Russian Federation on all fronts, the Ukrainian military is now doing everything not to die, believesthe commander of the Ukrainian Armed Forces battalion, Kirill Veres.
    "
    “If we talk about the war on all fronts - media, where there are battles, then we are losing,” Veres said in an interview with the Ukrainian television channel ICTV.

    At the same time, he could not answer the question of where the Ukrainian military is winning. "I don’t know where, I can’t say. We are surviving. We do not do this (in order - ed.) to win. These are different things: to do to win and to win, and to do so as not to die. We’re probably in the second place now,” noted Veres.

    According to him, now is a very difficult time for Ukraine. “We thought that we would be in Crimea in the summer, a lot of people stopped living there, some stopped wanting to go to the Armed Forces of Ukraine,” added Veres.

    https://ria.ru/20231219/komandir-1916805486.html

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:23 pm

    Isos wrote:Casualties are quit impossible to figure out for Ukraine.

    ...........

    Russians numbers aren't right. It could be bullshit to play some propaganda game or just the official number of what they have as intel, they certainly don't have intel on all the casualties. By intel I mean graveyard counters, report from drone operators, radio interception...

    Exactly, how can the Russians count the numbers in areas they can't see after destruction, like barracks/HQ/ammo/fuel/SAM/bunkers etc sites, especially in the rear. Especially when it is in the financial interests of many Ukrainians to mask them.

    Given the state of population records in Ukraine before 2014 let alone after, combined with emigration in almost every direction, we are unlikely to ever know how many died, injured perhaps.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:38 pm

    NATO troops directly involved in Ukraine conflict – Russia,12.19.2023.

    Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu has claimed that US, UK, and Polish military personnel are operating air defense and multiple launch rocket systems.

    Several NATO member states have boots on the ground in the Ukraine conflict, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu has claimed. He alleged that Western military personnel are operating certain weapons systems, and that hundreds of satellites belonging to the US-led military bloc are providing Kiev with surveillance.

    Speaking at a meeting of Defense Ministry officials on Tuesday, where President Vladimir Putin was also present, Shoigu stated that “NATO service members are directly operating air defense systems, tactical ballistic missiles, and multiple launch rocket systems” in Ukraine. He cited radio intercepts featuring English and Polish speakers. According to the minister, Western officers are also playing an active role in preparing Ukrainian military operations as well as training troops, both in their home countries and in Ukraine.

    Russian officials have repeatedly warned that ever-deepening Western involvement in the conflict unnecessarily increases the chances of a direct military confrontation between NATO and Moscow. 

    The Russian defense chief went on to claim that more than 5,000 foreign fighters have been killed since hostilities broke out in February 2022, with 1,427 Polish, 466 US, and 344 UK nationals among them.

    “Working in the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ interest are 410 NATO military and dual-purpose space devices,” Shoigu estimated.

    He also lauded Russia’s defense industry for ramping up production in the past 18 months and helping prevent ammunition shortages on the front lines. “Despite the sanctions, we are manufacturing more high-tech weaponry than NATO countries,” Shoigu continued.

    The minister concluded by stating that “as of today, the Russian army is the best-prepared and most combat-ready in the world, armed with cutting-edge weapons tested in combat.”

    Putin insisted at the same meeting that the West’s efforts to inflict a strategic defeat on Russia have failed.

    Speaking to the Ukrainian branch of US state-run broadcaster Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) on Friday, Kiev’s former ambassador to the UK, Vadim Prystaiko, claimed that Britain is developing plans to potentially deploy troops to Ukraine.

    The diplomat, who was fired after criticizing Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, went on to suggest that while Western officials will deny any such plans, foreign deployments are still possible under certain circumstances.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/589340-russia-defense-shoigu-nato-troops-ukraine/

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    Post  Regular Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:39 pm

    [quote="JohninMK"]
    Isos wrote:Exactly, how can the Russians count the numbers in areas they can't see after destruction, like barracks/HQ/ammo/fuel/SAM/bunkers etc sites, especially in the rear. Especially when it is in the financial interests of many Ukrainians to mask them.

    Given the state of population records in Ukraine before 2014 let alone after, combined with emigration in almost every direction, we are unlikely to ever know how many died, injured perhaps.

    Ukrainians can mask as much as they want, morgue records, obituaries, posthumous awards are all accessible to Russians. Eventually they know who exactly who was in that deep strike. Same what happened in that Pizza house strike. How long it took to know the names? Or famous deep strike during awards? Or funeral strikes?

    For bunker, SAM, airfield strikes, you will be surprised, but destruction of MiG-29s with lancet and fuel strike KIAs were known same week.

    Injured is easy to count because there is bigger paper trace that is accessible for Russian hackers, agents.

    I am starting to believe that Russia knows when Zaluzhny takes a shit. It doesn’t mean that Russia will start releasing accurate and true information, it wouldn’t serve any purpose. It’s not truth telling contest. What would it serve?

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:09 pm

    If the ministry of defense gives out this figure, why question?

    Of any source, the one who would have a good knowledge of it is the MOD,

    Noone actually ever gave a 1 million figure, it's just pro Russians saw Ukrainian TV with such a number and latched onto it to justify how slow the special military operation was going

    The truth is always somewhere in the middle, and if MOD will give the lower end figure, and the higher end figure is 1 million,

    Then the truth is probably closer to Shoigus information then social media

    Again, think about it, the jews are bombing gaza and have killed 13,000 civilians

    The Russian military fights this war exclusively on rural frontlines or near some villages and small cities

    How would 1 million troops be dead and wounded fighting in unknown places like Rabotino and Ugledar? Even in fortresses, the number of Ukrainians actually defending and the number of Russians attacking is lower than people estimate

    It's not at all like GPW - Kharkov battle or Stalingrad

    People are partying in Kiev, and in Russia there is no war

    So ofc the numbers are a lot lower then is being casually thrown around

    The reality is: Putin in preserving the Russian economy, told the military to fight this on easy mode

    And the Ukrainians, although in an eleventh wave of mobilization, are obviously not on the verge of collapse

    Let's be realistic, because it's ridiculous to talk otherwise
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    Post  Isos Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:18 pm



    Yes, it’s hard. But who counts them now? Internet autists, snipers, drone teams. And Russian MOD, do they need to count in same way? Of course not. Ukrainians do this for them: HUMIT and hacking

    That's what I say, they count some of them but not all.

    Honestly, these KIAs are easiest to count. Because family members, memorial services and obituaries pop out. The fresher recruited, the more trace he will have.

    Not really. No one knows who was drafted and where they are. Comms are pretyy shitty and ukros don't say much about their dead family members. .

    Yes, but don’t see how it relates to KIAs. That’s the problem for UA recruiters.

    Huge internal mouvements prevents good statistics. Fake names, surrenders, the ones hidding, killed... everything is mixed and impacted.

    No one counts dead people during arty observation mission, its not COIN. Battle damage assessment against infantry is not a priority: Russian artillery does perform quick ad-hoc fire missions in certain areas that have killzones (Robitino, Artyomovsk, etc), but it’s rarely blind nowadays.

    Exactly why they have biased numbers. They track that bmp-1 and blow it up. They may see how many survived, those who immediatly exit the vehicle, but no the deads inside.

    They did move quite a bit recently, haha. No fanfares, but that’s how it should be, unlike Ukrs, best not to be pre-emptive. But no one meticulously counts these dead fuckers when they take over new territory. There are better more important things to do. When Russians will retake Robotino, dead not extracted Ukrainians will be already mixed with the dirt, you will need exhumation to count this, so after the war only. Don’t expect some Ivan with a shovel and DNA kit.

    152mm guns fired 20-30-40km away. Mlrs even further away.

    They never retook that much land.

    Absolutely. Lol, I think they just make things up as they undercounted IFVs. Russian MOD has no need to give correct numbers. They have no need to tell the truth. They know much more than us, but like with combat footage, they don’t care sharing with us.

    Depend what their goal is.

    Give a big number and some enemy will be scared and think they are loosing.

    Give low number and the ukro general will think thry have a chance to win and send thousabds in counter offensive against well protected russian positions waiting for that move near some pre prepared traps.

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    Post  JohninMK Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 pm

    If the now mainly heathen westerners (inc Ukrainians now because that's what they want to be) think they can withstand the force in these and no doubt many other men, they are deluding themselves.



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    Post  lyle6 Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:52 pm

    Don't lose your tits. The hohol body count is well north of 500k. The Russian MoD simply massively understates its succeses in order to keep the Russian people on their toes and fight the SMO the way it should be fought, to the death.

    The west and the hohols did the exact opposite, got themselves high on their supply and look at what good it did them. The massive popular support for the war from their populations has collapsed, replaced with fatigue and apathy and even their leadership are wavering.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:06 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Isos wrote:Casualties are quit impossible to figure out for Ukraine.

    Yes, it’s hard. But who counts them now? Internet autists, snipers, drone teams. And Russian MOD, do they need to count in same way? Of course not. Ukrainians do this for them: HUMIT and hacking

    Again, take it from the perspective.
    Russkie were proven shy on reporting Ukro decimation from the very first hours.
    They are still stuck to the absurd of "brother nation".
    Nooooo there are so much furry rabbits, be no afraid!
    I guess nobody is sane enough to say end of that crap.
    It is a usual overwhelming bureaucracy and propaganda hammered with reality.
    Ukro cemeteries are fully booked, no doubt.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:32 pm

    Russia will help history put everything in its place in Ukraine, by Andrey Rezchikov for VZGLYAD. 12.19.2023.

    At an extended meeting of the Board of the Ministry of Defense, Vladimir Putin outlined the priorities in Russia’s foreign policy strategy. Its key features are sovereignty, protecting the territorial integrity of the country and achieving a balance of power in the world. All this is impossible without ending the Ukrainian crisis. Putin recalled that countries neighboring Ukraine would like to return their former territories, which are now controlled by Kyiv. Do these words contain prerequisites for new scenarios for resolving the Ukrainian issue?

    On Tuesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin  held  an extended meeting of the Defense Ministry board at the National Defense Management Center of the Russian Federation. In his speech, he paid great attention to foreign policy, noting that the United States has solved its current problems by “tearing off,” as they believe, Ukraine, and breaking off Russia’s relations with Europe.

    “We simply couldn’t behave differently - or we had to hand over everything and watch them chomping, eating everything that was ours, originally Russian. We couldn’t do this, and they understood that we couldn’t do it, but they did it on purpose. They deliberately dragged us and Europe into this conflict, achieved their goals in this sense - they “took away” Russia and Europe, and now they are also shifting the burden of financial responsibility and payments onto Europe,” Putin said.

    According to him, “the weak-willed, spineless generation of today’s politicians in Europe cannot resist this, bearing in mind the colossal dependence in the media, in the economy, in politics.” “There, you know, wherever you point your finger, at some major media outlet in Europe, the final beneficiary is some American foundation, three or four years later. Everything is there, everything is overseas. And this influences political life. From a young age, from their student days, the special services “acquire” their supporters there, we know this, and they work with them, dragging them to the political Olympus of European countries,” Putin said.

    During the board meeting, a lot was said about the progress of the special military operation (SVO) in Ukraine. The head of state noted that the only guarantor of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine was Russia. “When Russia created the Soviet Union, it simply handed over, together with its population, vast historical territories, Russian ones, enormous potential, and invested colossal resources in this entire territory,” Putin recalled.

    Ukraine received Western lands thanks to Stalin's decision after World War II. “He gave away part of the Polish lands, Lviv and so on, several large regions - 10 million people live there. In order not to offend the Poles, he compensated for their losses at the expense of Germany: he gave the eastern lands to Germany, the Danzig corridor, and Danzig itself. He took some from Romania, some from Hungary - he gave everything there, to Ukraine,” the president said.

    The Russian leader noted that the people “who live there - many, in any case, I know this for sure, 100 percent - they want to return to their historical homeland.” “And those countries that lost these territories, primarily Poland, are dreaming of returning them,” the head of state added.

    Only Russia, Putin believes, could be the guarantor of Ukraine’s territorial integrity. “If they don’t want to, they don’t need to. History will put everything in its place. We will not interfere, but we will not give up ours. This is what everyone should understand - both in Ukraine, those who are aggressive towards Russia, and in Europe, and in the USA. If they want to negotiate, let them negotiate. But only we will do this based on our interests,” the president said.

    Regarding the progress of the special military operation, Putin said that Ukraine was suffering heavy losses and had largely squandered its reserves in an attempt to show the West the results of the counter-offensive.

    In turn, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu  named  the exact losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (AFU) - since the beginning of the special operation they exceeded 383 thousand military personnel killed and wounded, 14 thousand tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 553 aircraft and 259 helicopters, 8.5 thousand field artillery guns and MLRS. And since the beginning of the “counter-offensive”, the losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces have exceeded 159 thousand military personnel, 121 aircraft, 766 tanks.

    According to Shoigu, Ukraine received $203 billion from external sponsors, which is 30 billion more than its GDP. “In fact, this is a bankrupt country, since a significant part of these funds are loans that must be repaid,” the minister said.

    Experts agree that the current expanded board of the Ministry of Defense has largely shown what Russia’s military strategy and foreign policy will be like in the coming years. “Some of what was said at the board is the vector of development of our foreign policy, but in essence it is the results of the year, key directions for the development of the army and navy, as well as tasks for the near future,” notes Alexander Asafov, political scientist, member of the Public Chamber of Moscow.

    From what was said at the board meeting, it follows that the meaning of the vector of Russian foreign and military policy is sovereignty, protection of territorial integrity and the balance of power in the world, the speaker emphasized. “This is the main task facing the security bloc and the Ministry of Defense in particular. It is important to discuss this in this format so that citizens understand exactly how the state protects us,” the political scientist emphasized.

    The interlocutor recalled that at extended meetings of the Board of the Ministry of Defense, the president always speaks not only “about our plans and achievements,” but also finds out whether “shortcomings have been eliminated.” “The President gets very deep into the details. He collects information not only from the Ministry of Defense, but also from military officers and volunteers too. Putin demands that the military respond to criticism and all civil initiatives,” Asafov explained.

    “The Army, Navy and Air Force control the situation not only in the zone of a special military operation, but also ensure our sovereignty and provide opportunities for the economic development of our country. It is obvious that the combat capabilities of the Russian Armed Forces are increasing, and this percentage will only increase,” adds Pavel Danilin, director of the Center for Political Analysis and Social Research, associate professor at the Financial University under the Government of the Russian Federation.

    No less important, the political scientist said, is that the president “ensures coordination of activities between all forces, means and structures involved in the Northern Military District.” “Since 2008, army reform has been carried out. And today, in a number of areas, the level of modern weapons in strategic forces is above 91%, and in conventional forces - above 75%. This is a unique situation, this has never happened in the history of the country,” the specialist emphasized.

    As for the president’s words about Poland and other European countries that would like to return their territories, what was said can be viewed “in two ways,” including as a readiness to divide Ukraine with neighboring countries, the expert believes. “Whoever wants, hears as he wants. But in general, I think we won’t mind if they go for it. But I wouldn’t say directly that such a call was made,” the political scientist explained. The expert recalled that

    Russia’s goal is not to destroy Ukraine as a state, but to recognize the former USSR as Moscow’s zone of interests and refuse to create US and NATO military bases there.

    Asafov agrees that Russia has its own goals and objectives in the Northern Military District, “we are moving toward them regardless of the desire or reluctance of other countries.” However, he called it a “bold assumption” that it is possible to conclude from what was said at the board that Moscow is ready to discuss the territorial division of Ukraine with neighboring countries.

    “The actions that the Kiev regime is carrying out on the line of combat contact with the support of the West are just an instrument, and not at all the subjective activity of Kyiv. Here it is important to understand that Russia’s security depends on new agreements on the contours of common security not only in the European space, but in the world in general. Therefore, resolving the Ukrainian crisis is impossible without creating a new security system,” Asafov believes.

    https://vz.ru/politics/2023/12/19/1245147.html

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Dec 19, 2023 9:59 pm

    "Aussie Cossack" lol1 lol1 lol1

    What a whore liar. Stalin "annexed" the territory Poland grabbed in 1920. That western anus must taste delicious to this clown.

    In the long run, they should have been left outside the USSR aside from the Belorussian parts.

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    Post  Hole Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:01 pm

    Transcarpathia back to Hungary
    Galicia back to Poland
    Bukovina back to Romania
    Question is why should Russia reward NATO states, two of the three were at the forefront in supporting the Ukros.
    Romania lost a small part of her territory because the country fought on the side of Hitler against Russia (SU).
    Hungary was a ally of Hitler Germany. Until the last minute.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:06 pm

    To get rid of them bro.
    And there is the other question - who is interested?
    Seriously.
    Poland!?!
    Rolling Eyes No

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    Post  lyle6 Tue Dec 19, 2023 10:17 pm

    If Poland gets Lvov back Danzig should be returned to Germany as well. The people living there would probably switch countries in a heartbeat anyway. Razz

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