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^'Em. No. That's insane. Why don't people understand that nuclear powers mean what they say? China did NOT want to do any of this.
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42 posters
China's Military and Geopolitics
Backman- Posts : 2706
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flamming_python and Werewolf like this post
Werewolf- Posts : 5928
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Diplomacy enters the second phase. Time to speak with undeniable arguments!
flamming_python- Posts : 9545
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walle83 wrote:
Looks more like China was searching for any reason to make all this happen. They are testing thier new limits as wannabe superpower. Doubt the US will change anything because of this, even with Chinas build up the last years the US is still the big dog in the Pacific.
China was searching for a reason to do what?
Send Pelosi to Taiwan?
You can't polish a turd, just as you can't excuse the string of US provocative actions in Taiwan, in Kosovo and lets see what else will happen now.
Hole likes this post
Backman- Posts : 2706
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flamming_python wrote:walle83 wrote:
Looks c.
China was searching for a reason to do what?
Send Pelosi to Taiwan?
You can't polish a turd, just as you can't excuse the string of US provocative actions in Taiwan, in Kosovo and lets see what else will happen now.
He thinks China was looking for a reason to do all of these hawkish actions. He's completely wrong. China bent over backwards to avoid this shit.
Anyway
BREAKING: China has prohibited use of the phrase "Made in Taiwan" on any product the island now exports to the mainland, and now must use the name "Chinese Taipei" or "Taiwan, China".
Apple is asking all its suppliers to follow the regulation.
flamming_python likes this post
TMA1- Posts : 1194
Points : 1192
Join date : 2020-11-30
Guys, let a simple man like myself make all this simple. Is Ukraine and Taiwan in America's backyard? Even more, do foreign Intel agencies and NGOs that manipulate satellite nations to Russia and China help those nations, or do they help the "rules based" world order? If western politicians and talking heads wax philosophic about national sovereignty, then what are they doing using cloak and dagger subversive methods in the neighboring countries of Russia and China?
Hmm wonder why this isnt discussed simply and clearly. Maybe these power cliques dont want people to see the forest thru the trees...
Hmm wonder why this isnt discussed simply and clearly. Maybe these power cliques dont want people to see the forest thru the trees...
GarryB, Werewolf and Hole like this post
walle83- Posts : 976
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Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
Backman wrote:flamming_python wrote:walle83 wrote:
Looks c.
China was searching for a reason to do what?
Send Pelosi to Taiwan?
You can't polish a turd, just as you can't excuse the string of US provocative actions in Taiwan, in Kosovo and lets see what else will happen now.
He thinks China was looking for a reason to do all of these hawkish actions. He's completely wrong. China bent over backwards to avoid this shit.
Anyway
BREAKING: China has prohibited use of the phrase "Made in Taiwan" on any product the island now exports to the mainland, and now must use the name "Chinese Taipei" or "Taiwan, China".
Apple is asking all its suppliers to follow the regulation.
Overreacting and childish.
TMA1- Posts : 1194
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Join date : 2020-11-30
Look homie. American so-called deep state cliques do foreign policy like a wary mother playing power games with her children. These neocons and neolibs dont even have the cachet of older warmongers. Their actions and reactions come across as passive aggressive and fearful. As a result Russia and China are playing at the same game. They arent stupid and thry know that the western world combined is still powerful, but it wont stop them from dishing out the behavior they are recieving.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
On the other hand China is overreacting here.
Are they?
Most countries including countries in the west have accepted a one China policy all this time, even Taiwan has accepted that and not asked for or demanded independence from mainland China... after watching western behaviour around the world including in Europe, I would say China is being very reserved considering their considerable naval build up... what are all these ships for?
And the difference between Ukraine and Taiwan is that the US has not made any military promises in Ukraine but they have said over and over that they will military help Taiwan if China attacks them.
Perhaps you have not been paying attention but the US and the EU have been promising them HATO membership and membership to the EU for quite some time and also promising money and weapons and equipment and pretty much everything short of actual troops on the ground and if you look at what is happening there with various western special forces members being caught and some pretty high up officials being captured in some places allegedly they have been offering direct help too.
Some claims they are manning some of their new bits of equipment they are supplying because the Orcs are not managing western uber gear and are ruining its reputation as super weapons...
And the reactions of those America sees as its enemies are in fact entirely predictable; they will act to break out of the trap set for them or turn the tables.
With those attempts at containment offered as proof of Russian or Chinese or Iranian or North Korean or whomevers aggression and why they need to be contained.
Funny... put someone in solitary confinement for life for a murder they did not commit and when they kill someone breaking out of captivity that is used to prove they are killers and should be locked up...
The arse about world of the US.
If China bombed a runway or something symbolic would the US still do this ?
If China bombed anything would the US be able to back down?
They are as much trapped in this stupid games as their victims... sometimes...
US DEFENCE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN KIRBY: US OFFICIALS MADE CLEAR TO CHINA'S AMBASSADOR THAT THE US IS PREPARED FOR WHAT BEIJING CHOOSES TO DO.
The way they were prepared for 11/9 or their exit from Kabul or Covid... saying you are prepared for something someone else hasn't done yet and perhaps hasn't even decided what to do yet is just ignorant...
White House National Security Council Coordinator for Strategic Communications John Kirby announced on Aug. 4 that US military "will conduct standard air and maritime transits through the Taiwan Strait in the next few weeks".
So China should close the straits just before for training and testing anti shipping mines... so if they go ahead anyway... well if you lose a ship that is your problem...
Looks more like China was searching for any reason to make all this happen. They are testing thier new limits as wannabe superpower.
They are as likely to want to give up Taiwan as the US is to give up Hawaii or Alaska... learning to stand up to the bully is an important step for China...
Doubt the US will change anything because of this, even with Chinas build up the last years the US is still the big dog in the Pacific.
Everyone keeps saying that, but they are also a fragile paper tiger that is not ready to lose a lot of sailors to help Taiwan break away from China... or are they?
Apple is asking all its suppliers to follow the regulation.
Without a US government directive not to do this the majority of western companies will comply because they have too much invested in China and the Chinese market to get on their bad side.
Hannibal Barca and Hole like this post
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Is Ukraine and Taiwan in America's backyard?
Very good point... Russia and China are repeatedly told they are not allowed a sphere of influence, but such rules do not apply to the US who has a shit fit when any country talks to central or south american countries without their permission.
It is British aircraft complaining at being buzzed by Russian fighters on the borders of Russian airspace thousands of kms from Britain...
Hmm wonder why this isnt discussed simply and clearly. Maybe these power cliques dont want people to see the forest thru the trees...
Do what we tell you to do, not what we do because the rules don't apply to us.
Such people think they lead the international community, when even the West is divided by their BS most of the time.
Overreacting and childish.
Simply an escalation to make the US look weak and stupid the way US actions are attempting to make China look weak and stupid.
As a result Russia and China are playing at the same game. They arent stupid and thry know that the western world combined is still powerful, but it wont stop them from dishing out the behavior they are recieving.
Worse... the west wants Russia and China to play their games because they hold most of the cards in such games and they set the rules.
The result of the west playing silly buggers is that Russia and China realise they don't actually like the west and have no future together with them in their current mindset, so treat them with respect (ie very very unlikely at this stage) or just **** off... which is the most likely result.
Russia is not going to invade all of Europe like Germany tried to do and China is not going to attack the Asia Pacific region like Japan did, both are going to get rid of pro US and pro western elements in countries they border and are interested in and the ones they can't remove they are simply going to ignore.
That means Ukraine is going to get denazified and likely broken into lots of pieces which can choose to join the RF or remain neutral, while countries like Finland who choose to join a hostile boys club called HATO will get the ultimatum of trading in Rubles and when they refuse trade across the border will drop to either nothing or very very little... no need for embassies in such a case so close them down... if they want to talk about something they can send a message to the US embassy for any EU country related discussions.
Russia will then look to the rest of the world to sell wood and oil and gas and uranium and titanium and aircraft and vehicles and everything else and the west can please itself and spend more on energy and resources buying them from third parties they didn't buy from before because Russian products were cheaper.
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flamming_python- Posts : 9545
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Backman wrote:flamming_python wrote:walle83 wrote:
Looks c.
China was searching for a reason to do what?
Send Pelosi to Taiwan?
You can't polish a turd, just as you can't excuse the string of US provocative actions in Taiwan, in Kosovo and lets see what else will happen now.
He thinks China was looking for a reason to do all of these hawkish actions. He's completely wrong. China bent over backwards to avoid this shit.
Anyway
BREAKING: China has prohibited use of the phrase "Made in Taiwan" on any product the island now exports to the mainland, and now must use the name "Chinese Taipei" or "Taiwan, China".
Apple is asking all its suppliers to follow the regulation.
I know what he thinks.
The trouble is that buying into this line of the peaceful forces of democracy holding back the belligerent forces of tyranny who chomp at the leash for any chance to commit aggression - requires not only an increasingly convoluted train of thought, but increasingly altogether an outright suspension of disbelief
China's only fault in this whole episode is that it burnished its image to be more confrontational than it was actually prepared to be in practice. But it could easily have turned out otherwise. This could have indeed all ended up in a war and it would have been the fault of Washington. It could lead to a war yet. China cites the need to protect its territorial integrity and indeed this is a perfectly valid argument.
Because the provocation itself and any consequences thereof are entirely the purview of the United States. It should not have sent a senior official to Taiwan. Not at this time, not at any time, and not 20 years ago either, or whenever it was that the US in its sole defense over this episode argues "hey now we gone an' done it before and you didn't do nothin' back then".
Just as a reminder - the US itself does not recognize Taiwan as an independent country. Neither is it at war with China. What then exactly is its business in sending any sort of government representative to a quasi-seperatist part of China, without Beijing's permission? This is a major nuclear power we're talking about; yet Washington is treating the issue as if its sending yet another senator to the part of Syria controlled by the Kurdish militia without the permission of Damascus.
Is the US prepared for a war with China over what it itself admits is Chinese territory? Or is it a pure gamble designed to provoke a country half way around the world that has not been threatening the US? It has to be one or the other, and neither looks good. In fact the US comes across as an arrogant bully that this time has gotten away with its antics.
And it's a similar story to what Blinken was doing in Kosovo.
Similar story to how the Ukraine was being built up into a fortress and its army was being prepared to carry out offensive operations against the Donbass.
These aren't defensive actions, but rather attempts to reaffirm world-wide hegemony and embroil perceived challengers to the system into bloody wars, in preference to attempting to resolve all these conflicts of interest peacefully; as indeed they all can be, or could have been - without loss of face for any side.
Hole- Posts : 11121
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https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/08/reaction-to-pelosis-visit-reveals-chinas-plans-for-a-taiwan-conflict.html#more
China will start a SMO in a few years.
China will start a SMO in a few years.
GarryB likes this post
walle83- Posts : 976
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Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
GarryB wrote:
And the difference between Ukraine and Taiwan is that the US has not made any military promises in Ukraine but they have said over and over that they will military help Taiwan if China attacks them.
Perhaps you have not been paying attention but the US and the EU have been promising them HATO membership and membership to the EU for quite some time and also promising money and weapons and equipment and pretty much everything short of actual troops on the ground and if you look at what is happening there with various western special forces members being caught and some pretty high up officials being captured in some places allegedly they have been offering direct help too.
Some claims they are manning some of their new bits of equipment they are supplying because the Orcs are not managing western uber gear and are ruining its reputation as super weapons...
But Ukraine arent Nato or EU members and the US or Nato had not made any insurance to help if they were attacked. Putin knew this and that made his invasion decision much easier.
Taiwan in the other hand, well if US dont respond in case of a full Chinese invasion I would be very suprised.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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But Ukraine arent Nato or EU members and the US or Nato had not made any insurance to help if they were attacked.
So why all the HATO equipment going to Ukraine, why all the money from the west... why all the western special forces and high up officials visiting Ukraine both before and after the invasion helping with training?
Why Ukrainian forces in Afghanistan helping that HATO operation?
Ironically needing Russian help to leave that place when the US decided to leave.
Ukraine was on partnership for peace programmes and there was plenty of talk about them joining HATO... nothing of the kind has been said about Taiwan...
Taiwan in the other hand, well if US dont respond in case of a full Chinese invasion I would be very suprised.
Their response would likely be exactly the same, because deep down they could care less about the Ukraine, and equally they could care less about Taiwan... what they really care about is hurting and damaging Russia and China, so they will send money and weapons and equipment but not their own bodies officially.
On the sly they will send mercs and special forces on leave or some such other bullshit to get them live experience... but they will be disavowing any knowledge if they are captured or killed.
I read a news report that Pelosi was visiting the chip makers in Taiwan in regard to starting chip production in the US and Pelosis husband bought up stocks of the US company that was going to get the massive subsidy from Biden to start production... Trump gave the game away on what is essentially insider trading... Pelosis husband sold the stocks at a loss and she claimed she didn't talk to him about it so it wasn't insider trading at all... yeah right...
So that visit has already cost her some cash and Chinese sanctions against any company she or her husband are associated with will further damage her... hahahaha. Bitch... play stupid games... win stupid prizes...
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Backman- Posts : 2706
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.Mr Campbell reiterated that the US would conduct standard air and maritime transits through the Taiwan Strait in the coming weeks, and that it would announce an "ambitious road map" for trade negotiations with Taiwan in the coming days
Another delegation of Americans has landed in Taiwan.
"ambitious roadmap for trade" means defacto recognition.
Xi cucked and this is the result. The sunk cost of cucking will continue to pile up.
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Backman- Posts : 2706
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Funny that they are all on the US armed services committee, a delegation representing the US war armaments industry and weapons manufacturers.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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Funny that they are all on the US armed services committee, a delegation representing the US war armaments industry and weapons manufacturers.
Once someone has cut stairs to the top of the mountain anyone can follow and say they climbed the highest mountain in the world.
Interesting that Pelosis son was on that first trip to Taiwan but was not listed amongst the participants... he was just photographed as being there... more dodgy bullshit obviously went on...
This new escalation just means China has to step up its own responses to the US... this is a game where everyone loses, but being on top... the US actually has the most to lose... wonder how long before they realise that and stop playing chicken.
lancelot- Posts : 3172
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The critical point for China is no foreign occupiers in Taiwan. This was part of the original Nixon-Mao deal.
If the US starts doing dumb shit like semi-permanent rotations of troops into Taiwan. They will likely get their face smashed in.
In 5-10 years the Chinese will have military supremacy unless they are stopped first. I am sure of that.
The Chinese are not interested in adding more places to their nation. They just want their territory back. And not Qing era borders. As can be seen by the deal with Russia on the Russo-Chinese border.
If the US starts doing dumb shit like semi-permanent rotations of troops into Taiwan. They will likely get their face smashed in.
In 5-10 years the Chinese will have military supremacy unless they are stopped first. I am sure of that.
The Chinese are not interested in adding more places to their nation. They just want their territory back. And not Qing era borders. As can be seen by the deal with Russia on the Russo-Chinese border.
walle83- Posts : 976
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lancelot wrote:The critical point for China is no foreign occupiers in Taiwan. This was part of the original Nixon-Mao deal.
If the US starts doing dumb shit like semi-permanent rotations of troops into Taiwan. They will likely get their face smashed in.
In 5-10 years the Chinese will have military supremacy unless they are stopped first. I am sure of that.
The Chinese are not interested in adding more places to their nation. They just want their territory back. And not Qing era borders. As can be seen by the deal with Russia on the Russo-Chinese border.
Doubt the US has any intrest of placing any soldiers on the ground. They do however continue to provide hugh military assistance. Both Trump and Biden has signed large military hardware buissnes deals with Taiwan since 2020.
The latest includes Paladin howitsers, HIMARS, land-attack missiles, drones ecs ecs.
https://thediplomat.com/2022/07/are-adiz-incursions-chinas-new-response-to-us-arms-sales-to-taiwan/
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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In 5-10 years the Chinese will have military supremacy unless they are stopped first. I am sure of that.
I am sure that is the American mentality and perhaps why they are pushing now for a conflict they think they can win rather than leave it til later when they might struggle... their economy issues are not going to disappear or correct themselves and the consequences of the conflict in Ukraine are not even really taking effect yet... but that is going to change soon enough.
What the US wants ideally is for China to fight someone else... India springs to mind and the US would likely also happily push Japan and Australia under the bus too... but a conflict against Taiwan is something they have talked about too much to do a Ukraine and send weapons and money and otherwise do **** all...
Doubt the US has any intrest of placing any soldiers on the ground. They do however continue to provide hugh military assistance. Both Trump and Biden has signed large military hardware buissnes deals with Taiwan since 2020.
The latest includes Paladin howitsers, HIMARS, land-attack missiles, drones ecs ecs.
I suspect they will also want Taiwanese expertise in computer chip production perhaps with Taiwanese companies working with US companies to set up chip production in the US... not 12nm chips for cell phones... much bigger chips for infrastructure and hardware... to make the US more independent when China attacks Taiwan.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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Taiwan can resist but will loose. China will just achieve air superiority and destroy taiwan from the air with bombs and missiles of all sorts.
Then they will invade.
Taiwan is a small area and the airfields will quickly be destroyed with ballistic missiles. They have no strategical deapth to store weapons, fuel and food far away from chinese missiles. They can all be destroyed from China with missiles.
Contrary to ukraine where it is easy to supply nato weapon through land border, taiwanese resuplies will be struck by anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes all day long.
Overall Taiwan is very weakly protected with outdated f-16, Mirages and fc-k1.
They can resist on the ground if China invades but they will suffer great losses. China still lacks ships for landing enough forces and its experience in such operations is innexistant but so is taiwanese experience at defending against an invader.
Then they will invade.
Taiwan is a small area and the airfields will quickly be destroyed with ballistic missiles. They have no strategical deapth to store weapons, fuel and food far away from chinese missiles. They can all be destroyed from China with missiles.
Contrary to ukraine where it is easy to supply nato weapon through land border, taiwanese resuplies will be struck by anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes all day long.
Overall Taiwan is very weakly protected with outdated f-16, Mirages and fc-k1.
They can resist on the ground if China invades but they will suffer great losses. China still lacks ships for landing enough forces and its experience in such operations is innexistant but so is taiwanese experience at defending against an invader.
walle83- Posts : 976
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Isos wrote:Taiwan can resist but will loose. China will just achieve air superiority and destroy taiwan from the air with bombs and missiles of all sorts.
Then they will invade.
Taiwan is a small area and the airfields will quickly be destroyed with ballistic missiles. They have no strategical deapth to store weapons, fuel and food far away from chinese missiles. They can all be destroyed from China with missiles.
Contrary to ukraine where it is easy to supply nato weapon through land border, taiwanese resuplies will be struck by anti ship missiles, mines and torpedoes all day long.
Overall Taiwan is very weakly protected with outdated f-16, Mirages and fc-k1.
They can resist on the ground if China invades but they will suffer great losses. China still lacks ships for landing enough forces and its experience in such operations is innexistant but so is taiwanese experience at defending against an invader.
Perhaps, but it will still be a hard thing to do. China should expect heavy looses.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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When you only fight war when you have to and not for fun then heavy loses become acceptable.
Isos- Posts : 11602
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If there is an invasion there will be losses or sure.
But the Chinese may go for a blocus, missile attack and let the population change the regime and then annexe it diplomatically without huge fighting.
But the Chinese may go for a blocus, missile attack and let the population change the regime and then annexe it diplomatically without huge fighting.
walle83- Posts : 976
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GarryB wrote:When you only fight war when you have to and not for fun then heavy loses become acceptable.
"Have to"? No one is forcing China to invade Tawain. Present status has worked just fine the last 70 years or so.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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"Have to"? No one is forcing China to invade Tawain. Present status has worked just fine the last 70 years or so.
It has worked just fine for the last 70 years.... neither side is happy, but it is the best situation they could have without continuous bloody conflict which neither wants either.
The point is that the US is changing that stable acceptable to both sides status, and blaming China for it... they want to create a conflict situation just as they did in the Ukraine... they wanted to create another Afghanistan for Russia and another Chernobyl and another nazi germany as an enemy and another Covid with the bio labs, and another hiroshima with the offer of allowing Kiev to have nuclear weapons... but Kiev calls the Russian invasion unprovoked...
The US claimed creating a military bloc and supporting each other and strengthening their own allies while weakening the opposition with sanctions and political BS over everything would keep Ukraine safe... and I very much think they will be just as successful in the Pacific with Taiwan and China...
I am an athiest but if I was religious I would be thinking the anti christ is alive and well and a core central part of the US deep state... they want WWIII and are pushing for it to be seen to be the wests only choice for survival... and if nobody stops them there is a good chance they will get their way.
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