China's Military and Geopolitics

jhelb wrote:Recently released report suggests People’s Liberation Army Air Force's Su-27s lost a majority of engagements in a November 2015 joint exercise with the 701 Fighter Squadron of the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF)

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-02-08/plaaf-senior-pilot-reveals-poor-performance-joint-exercise-rtaf

It's pretty good for such an old aircraft. It had total superirity in dogfight and had decent result in BVR.

Yeah. Face it against a Su-35 and story will change as Su-35 has reduced RCA greatly compared to legacy Su-27 and a far more powerful radar.

I like how they don't mention J-10 results. Chances, not so fair.

The problem was the shorter range r-77. In terms of radar su-27 detected the grippen at 120km so if it had the rvv sd with 120km range it would have had better results. And it is a proof that all those fanboys made numbers about RCS and detection ranges are total bulshit. According to them gripen, rafale, typhoon have less than 1m2 RCS and should be detected by a su27 at ranges around 50km ....

Reducing rcs would be good for ECM against amraam but it would still be detected well before missile's max range. They also didn't test ECM.

IMO russian will read this story seriously and invest in r-77M for its su-30/35.

jhelb wrote:

Isos wrote:IMO russian will read this story seriously and invest in r-77M for its su-30/35.

Same time lat year Hindus had claimed that their Mig 21s armed with R 77 shot down a Pakistani F-16. Too bad they couldn't provide any evidence to back up their claims. Else it would have proved how effective R 77s are.

They said it was a r73.

That doesnt mean the r77 sucks and can't be used. It only means most of the time the amraam equiped jet will launch the missiles first and that's an advantage. Russian btw use the longer range 77-1 and not the basic 77.

Just based on the title... that is pot calling the kettle black... China might spy on US Australian exercises, but the Americans spy on everyone all the time...

US Aussie exercises are not intended for practise against anyone but China.

Would u be happy or not if Australia & perhaps NZ got colonized by Chinese & other Asians in ur lifetime? IMO it will happen eventually.

What do you mean by colonised?

I have plenty of ethnically Chinese and Asian friends who are New Zealanders... they have strong ties to China, but most white New Zealanders have strong ties to other countries too... most non whites have strong ties to other countries too... there is a large population of pacific islanders in Auckland who don't support the all blacks when we play Samoa or Fiji... that is fine... I have no problem with that.

The fact that you think China is going to come down and claim ownership of NZ and Australia the way the British did and the French tried to and the Americans are trying to.

It is amusing to see our local press really upset about China buying local land for farms, but little to no mention of rich Americans building bunkers here in case WWIII comes or the US collapses...

Just racist.

if they settle there in large #s & multiply, demographics will change in their favour & these island nations will become just like the SE Asia with large ethnic Chinese population.

That is how the real world works... the Maori settle here first... they were Pacific Islanders... then came the white men and the Asians and lots of other types... recently we have been getting a lot of white people leaving countries in Africa like South Africa and various other African countries... we have always had Chinese people coming here to live... why should I be upset about that?

Looking at the last 30 odd years they way American and western culture has been heading I think a reorientation towards Asia might be a good thing... (pun intended).

In my experience Chinese are generally law abiding hard working people... the more we have the better.

Mexico doesn't officially claim ownership of its former states in the SW

Surprised you used that example... what about the millions of Cubans in Florida who don't speak english yet have lived there for decades... if America descends into chaos... perhaps a democratic cuban republic in Florida and Mexico gets some land back.

As you mention ethically mexican people in America can serve in the American military but they are still coloured people who are treated with distrust and suspicion... where is your green card boy...

The Chinese ambassador there is threatening economic pain, and the editor of state-owned Global Times recently described Australia as gum stuck to China’s shoe.

They learned that from past American and Australian treatment of China... when the west pushes China economically and militarily of course China is going to push back... and when countries push back the west loses their shit because bullies don't expect a fight.

One suspects the Australians will stand firm on security and sovereignty. But alone, Australia isn’t enough to forestall PRC domination of the region. New Zealand? It faces the same pressure as Australia, but is more likely to fold – and it’s a pretty small island nation anyway.

Australia is getting in the shit with china the same way canada is... when your stupid fucking government backs the US to the letter no matter what when the US goes after an important customer of yours and you back them up don't be surprised if there is backlash directed at you. Little cowards hiding under the skirt of your mum while she is shouting at the local bully shouting abuse and insults while your mum is there... not thinking about next week when mum is not there to protect you and you are on your own and they are at the same school as you so there is no escape.

China has drawn Australia into its security tensions with India after New Delhi and Canberra signed a defense accord that could see their two military forces sharing facilities in sea straits hotly contested by Beijing. As China and India mobilize more troops and equipment along their fractious Himalayan border, the Chinese Communist Party-backed Global Times said that Beijing could view the India-Australia accord as a direct threat.

Australia and India and the US do this sort of shit and don't understand why China reacts... fucking idiots.

The leadership of India and Australia and the US should look up the word escalation in the dictionary and have a long hard think about it.

But China is on purpose provoking its neighbors - Vietnam, India, Indonesia and Malaysia by unilaterally changing the land and maritime boundary. Currently, the PLARF is increasing its arsenals of IRBMs & MRBMs armed with EMP-generating warheads that are directed towards India.

The US is openly courting India and recruiting her in her little conflict with China... the US had Australia doing that for years despite a lot of Aussie income coming directly from China... the US is also courting Indonesia and Malaysia too... see a pattern?

Because when China starts reacting to US activity and its attempts to form alliances against countries it sees as a threat, when China reacts to its actions it is immediately described as Chinese aggression or provocation... I mean it works in Europe... what european countries would give a second thought to the accusation of Russian aggression being not true...

Of course the Chinese are increasing their IRBMs and MRBMs... the US just withdrew from the INF treaty and is going to base IRBMs and MRBMs in South Korea and Japan and India if you let them... and probably Australia too.

Rather, she is asserting herself as the dominant regional power.
I dare to say that India has a lot more in common with China than with Australia, while China in turn has more in common with Indochina than the latter with India.
India should recognise her limitations & learn how to yield, instead of seeking allies that will stub her in the back- then she'll be able to protect her interests better in the long run.

The problem is that people are stupid... they fall for smoke and mirrors, they fall for misdirection... if India hitches its wagon to the Americans if the Indian economy ever starts growing like the Chinese economy is, if they manage their economy well and have little to no debt like Russia has and start improving quality of life and infrastructure and develop and grow then you will suddenly find your allies have sanctions imposed on you pretty quick.

On the other hand if you take BRICS seriously and work together with China and Russia and other non western countries you might find you can start solving some of your problems... how the hell do you think America could help India solve problems of poverty... America doesn't give a shit about its own people... no healthcare for everyone, but they have lots of prisons...

I would think China could give India advice on getting people out of poverty... it usually means finding jobs for them that pay a reasonable wage and to build places where it doesn't cost millions to buy a good house with electricity and running water...

China may stab you in the back... but the Chinese people I know personally wouldn't do that. Can you say the same for the US government?

It is like the spyware debate... Huawei might have spyware in its hardware and software, but the alternative American stuff that isn't ready yet definitely will have all sorts of spyware in it and you can bet your ass the American government agencies will continue to use that spyware to spy... they spy on everyone including themselves.

By cornering resources on land and in the sea. Resources, territories that never belonged to China.

Wow.... how British of them...

No, nothing in common with China. In Europe there is an European identity that stretches all the way upto North America. An identity based on race, colour, religion. In Africa there is a similar African identity, albeit not as robust as Europe. But, there is no Asian identity. You are Japanese, Fillipino, Vietnamese, Indian, Indonesian etc. Indians and Chinese differ vastly from one another. Customs, race, rituals, rule of law, everything.

Two rapidly developing countries (mainly because of technology and communication more than anything), with huge populations that are neither fully aligned with the west or the Russians... literally the first and second world, which makes them both third world in that situation but their population and literal human power means the are not going to stay that way... you can't say India can't be friends with China because they are not the same race because the alternatives of Russia or US/west are different races for both countries too... there is no pure racial choice available for anyone... and I see that as a good thing to be honest.

Agreed. India should address those limitations but why should India not stand up against a regional bully like China. Back in the late 70s, Vietnam was in two minds as to whether they should fight against the invading Chinese. Eventually they did and China lost, badly.

Vietnam seems rather good at winning, but you need to pick your fights and even when you win you can lose. Vietnam was hardened by decades of war and was highly skilled. The Chinese were an exercise and parade force... it was all front line units and no logistics... it had not fought a war for a while and that showed.

Do you think they didn't notice they lost to Vietnam?

Do you think they haven't analysed exactly what happened and why and done something about it?

US is not supporting India in its fight against China.

It is offering all sorts of cooperation agreements and to sell all sorts of stuff to India, but it doesn't want a war... it hates war...

India never entered any bloc since independence. Instead chose to remain Non Aligned.

Non aligned with Australia and the US against China...

The proliferation of US backed think tanks, politicians, bureaucrats, media in India means India is buying a whole lot of military hardware and other products/services from the US.

To increase tensions and pressure on China...

It is also happening in Europe against Russia don't you know... America is much much safer with troops in Poland... it has nothing to do with Russia right?

But India trades a lot more with China, than it does with the US. The balance of trade is completely in China's favor. China enjoys a US$60 billion trade surplus with India.

You do understand that trade deficits don't matter and that Trump is a bloody idiot.

When an Indian trader buys enormous amounts of Chinese crap and imports it into India and then sells it at the local market for five times what he paid for it most of the money just circulates in India.

Yet it tries to establish its hegemony over India and across Asia. There is a realization within the Indian intellectual class that if war breaks out with China, no country will come to help India, neither US nor Russia nor anybody else.

Well it would probably come down to what is happening... and who started it and why... but I suspect rather than help you kill Chinese people, the Russians would be more interested in getting you to stop killing Chinese people and to get Chinese people to stop killing you and sort it out with talk instead of with violence.

Finding out which side it more brutal and nasty solves nothing.

After the end of WW 2, Soviet Union had to fight back against China because China tried to take over Russian territory by force on several occasions. The USSR-PRC border tensions of the late 1960s is a decent enough template for examining the India-China border tensions of today. Due to these clashes the USSR developed the Myasischev M-25, sonic boom generating aircraft designed to kill troops on the ground with over-pressure. I am also well aware of MBRL love delivered to the PLA at Damansky.

India will have to treat China, the way the Soviet Union did.

Or you could learn from the stupidity of that era and talk like grown ups and sort it out without murdering anyone.

The same can probably be said about US people. That the US may stab you in the back...but US people won't.

Yeah, but there are a couple of Americans I know who might stab me in the back if I let them...

When China comes to expel and take over your territory reminding them of history and geography won't help.

The only territory they have taken and claimed was unpopulated AFAIK. If they want to seize this country then they will have a fight on their hands.

It is also that part of the country that wants session from India. Thousands of Indians from other parts of India living in the North East for generations have been brutally massacred by these North Eastern tribals since 1947.

Well are you going to brutally quell the unrest or give them what they want?

A western democratic country would say it is an internal matter and put all the leaders in jail and start the reeducation programmes in the concentration camps that they wont call concentration camps but they will be.

During the last incident they were fighting with hands. 20 indians deads and (unofficial) 40 chineses.