Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues
Ukraina: Loss and gain in the Donbass War
Sunday 2 November, pro-Russia separatists in Donetsk, Kharkiv and Luhansk will vote for their own congress and their own leaders. Separatist election will happen one week after Ukrainian general election.
These two events are the knifes who cut the former united Ukrainia in halves.
UN General Secreatary Ban Ki Moon called the separatist election as a violation of Ukrainian laws and constitution, and the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry warned Russia about the consequences of supporting this election.
But Russia will still support the election of separatists. Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sergei Lavrov claimed that Moskva will accepeted the election of Donestk and Luhansk, and said that the elections is very critical for the goverments in these areas.
And all the things that the EU can only do is expressing its objection against Lavrov's claims.
Fact is fact, the Ukraina general election could not occur in the region of the separatists and the separatits have been carrying out their own election. That means in Luhansk and Donetsk, a new goverment and authority system have already been established, signifies the independence of these areas.
Western media blabbers something about "victory" of pro-West parties in the Ukrainian elections, and something about Putin lost Ukrainia into the West's hand. But the hard truth is that, Ukraina did not win. It lost the fight.
The separatist elections signifies the truth that Ukraina has lost. After 2 November, Ukraina will lostt 64,618 km2 and 9.4 million of people in Donestk and Luhansk. Not to mention that, not long ago it also has lost Krym, a penisula of 26,100 km2 and 1 million of people.
There is a lot of reasons for such events. But the most recent, the most direct cause is the West. The West forced Ukraina to do things with only one side, either Russia or EU. Only one. Ukrainia are not allowed to have the choice of maintaining good relationship with both sides.
In the name of so-called "democracy" and "freedom", one-tenth of Ukrainian territory, i.e. 90,718km2 has been lost. And there is no practical help from the West as promised.
It is so painful and so tragic for the Ukrainian people to know that, the IMF will not provide the 17 billion USD credit in the end of this year. That means in the most favourable circumstance, Ukraina can only received the money in next year. Until the end of this year, Kyiv can only rely about EU's 760 milllion USD.
Judy Dempsey, chief editor of Strategic Europe, has told the harsh reality to Ukrainian people, that is the West's spiritual support and celebration for Ukraina cannot guarantee the future for this country, and even a large amount of financial aids will not be enough to save Kyiv.
Ukrainia has paid a tremendous price for their taste of so-called Western freedom. The Kyiv goverment has fallen into the trap of delusion, delusion about the global powers who sell it like a pimp.
Hannibal Barca wrote:A brief summary please?
Petro007 wrote: By G-d's help, we shall prevail!
Petro007 wrote:They may seize Kyiv and Lviv. It will be worse than Afghanistan + Checnnya I + Chechnya II.
Let them feel that the Ukrainian Nation WILL NOT surrender to their imperialistic ambitions. By G-d's help, we shall prevail!
Ukrainian Nation is proud and it stands firm in the face of tyrany and oppression.
real G-D helps only the righteous
Petro007 wrote:They may seize Kyiv and Lviv. It will be worse than Afghanistan + Checnnya I + Chechnya II.
Let them feel that the Ukrainian Nation WILL NOT surrender to their imperialistic ambitions. By G-d's help, we shall prevail!
Petro007 wrote:These ragheaded goatfuckers may say what they want, the monstrous idol that they worship will not help them for real G-D helps only the righteous. Ukrainian Nation is proud and it stands firm in the face of tyrany and oppression.
Petro007 wrote:They may seize Kyiv and Lviv. It will be worse than Afghanistan + Checnnya I + Chechnya II.
Let them feel that the Ukrainian NationWILL NOT surrender to their imperialistic ambitions. By G-d's help, we shall prevail!
Petro007 wrote:These ragheaded goatfuckers may say what they want, the monstrous idol that they worship will not help them for real G-D helps only the righteous. Ukrainian Nation is proud and it stands firm in the face of tyrany and oppression.
higurashihougi wrote:Petro007 wrote:These ragheaded goatfuckers may say what they want, the monstrous idol that they worship will not help them for real G-D helps only the righteous. Ukrainian Nation is proud and it stands firm in the face of tyrany and oppression.
You proud Ukrainian nation is being fucked off by the Western powers and it is imposing tyrrany and opperession onto Donbass people.
Something very, very interesting has happened in Novorussia arpakola Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:56 am
Something fantastically interesting has happened in Novorussia: two senior Novorussian commanders, Igor Bezler and Alexei Mozgovoi have attempted to communicate with those Ukrainians who are on the other side.
Though I am not sure about the exact dates of the events (all I have is the dates of the posting on YouTube), this apparently began when Igor Bezler agreed to be interviewed by three TV crews at the same time: a Russian one, a Novorussian one, and a Ukrainian one. The big news here was, of course, that a Ukrainian journalist was given access to the city of Gorlovka, currently surrounded by Ukrainian forces, and that she got to speak with the local people, including combatants and then that she was given access to Bezler himself. Since all the journalists were more or less openly accusing each other of "filtering the truth" all parties agreed that the full recording, unedited, would be made available on YouTube. Now please keep in mind that in Banderastan, Russian journalists are blacklisted, Russian TV stations banned, and that the people in the junta controlled Ukraine are told that the other side are terrorists and Russian soldiers. Oh, and the Ukrainian media is the most disgusting, sold out, subservient, propagandistic you can imagine. And then suddenly, at least one Ukrainian TV crew agrees to show the face of one of the most feared Novorussian commanders and he get's to speak his mind.
But the next event was even more amazing. Alexei Mozgovoi agreed to a videoconference with not only Ukrainian journalists, but with actual field commanders of the Ukrainian military. To see Mozgovoi and the Ukrainians speak directly to each other was absolutely amazing. And here I have to apologize. I will not ask our translators to translate and subtitle the full thing. First, there were not one, but two such videoconferences. Then, we are talking about three long videos, see for yourself:
Bezler interview: Published on Oct 21, 2014
https://youtu.be/uVN2wkuL88w (length: 2 hours 17 min)
First videoconference of Mozgovoi: Published on Oct 22, 2014
https://youtu.be/WYy5Y9MQozA (length: 1 hour 20 mins)
Second videoconference of Mozgovoi: Published Oct 28, 2014
https://youtu.be/tC7YGe0SmqQ (length:1 hour 51 mins)
I do hope that somebody somewhere will translate it all, but this is way too big a load for me to ask any of our volunteers.
Also, these are very complex videos. There are discussions, some short moments of yelling and interrupting, there is cross-talk and there are even two songs. This is complex, very emotional stuff, very hard to convey in a translated text. Besides, who will have the time to sit through it all?
No, what I propose is to share with you the elements which struck me so much.
But first I need to clarify an important point: while the original idea apparently had been to have combatants talking to combatants, the Ukrainian side only had a few commanders and a few activists. The Novorussian side was composed of actual soldiers. Apparently, the Ukrainian side did not feel comfortable putting their foot-soldiers on the spot.
First and foremost, it was amazing to see how much both sides fully agreed upon. Both sides agreed that this war was useless and only benefited the enemies of the Ukraine. Both sides expressed contempt, disgust and even hatred for the politicians in power and the oligarchs who rule over Banderastan today. Both sides also agree that Yanukovich was a scumbag and that the Maidan protests were absolutely legitimate but that the original protests had been hijacked by enemies of the Ukraine. Both sides also agreed that this war had to be stopped. Now, please keep in mind that Ukrainian Nazis were, of course, not invited. These were mainly regular Ukrainian military speaking to Novorussian military and Ukrainian activists speaking to Mozgovoi. There were also some real disagreements.
The Ukrainian position was this (paraphrase - not real quote): "the Maidan was legitimate and correct but you - the Novorussians - took up arms and you thereby created a crisis which the illegitimate junta used and which prevented us from defending our political goals. We don't want our country to further break up and what you are doing is exactly that. Also, we know that the Russian "Polite Armed Men in Green" are fighting on your side and many of you are not representing true Ukrainian interests, but Russian interests. Stop fighting and join the political process to clean our country from the crazies".
To which Mozgovoi replied (paraphrase - not real quote): "we did not choose to fight, you came to our land and you are killing our people. If you really want to clean Kiev from the Nazi scum, then don't stand between us and Kiev and let us pass - we will take care of them no problem. You are taking orders from Nazis and oligarchs and you are doing nothing to stop them from killing our people. If we were to lay down our arms, we would all be massacred.
One interesting thing was that when the Ukrainians accused the Novorussians of doing Russia's bidding, Mozgovoi replied that the Ukrainians were pawns of the CIA and, amazingly, the Ukrainians pretty much agreed that the CIA was running the show. As for Mozgovoi, he did not deny that Russia was helping.
Both sides were expressing frustration that they could not unite their forces and jointly get rid of the oligarchs and Nazis.
During the Bezler interview, there was one amazing moment was when the Ukrainian crew asked Bezler if he spoke Ukrainian, to which he replied that 'yes'. Unconvinced, the Ukrainian crew asked him if he could recite a poem by the famous poet Taras Shevchenko. Then, to everybody's surprise, Bezler recited the poem "to the Poles" in which Sevchenko describes how happy the Cossaks were,
Until in the name of Christ
The ксьондзи (Latin Priests) came and set afire
To our quiet paradise. And spilled
A huge sea of tears and blood,
And killed and crucified orphans
In the Name of Christ
The heads of Cossacks then dropped
Like trampled grass,
The Ukraine cried, and moaned!
And the head after head
Fell to the ground. As if enraged,
A priest furious tongue
Screamed: «Te Deum! Hallelujah! .. "
And this is how my Polish friend and brother!
Evil priests and rich men
Separated us from each other
When we could have lived together happy
[nb: this is my own translation, I could not find this poem in English anywhere; as any Russian, I mostly understand Ukrainian, but I can easily misunderstand a word or expression so, caveat emptor, and don't take this translation to the bank! The Saker]
It was quite amazing to see how well Bezler spoke Ukrainian and how he used this opportunity to remind his Ukrainian counterparts how already in the past they were used and manipulated by Russia and Orthodoxy -hating westerners, and he did so using verses of their own national hero!
In another rather surreal moment, a Novorussian solider took out a guitar and sang a song about the war. The Ukrainians were clearly moved, although they were also disturbed by the fact that the song repeatedly said that these were "Russians fighting Russians". This issue came up several again later in the conversation. From the Novorussian point of view, the Ukrainians were also part of the "Russian cultural realm" (as opposed to state or nationality) albeit with a different accent and a different history. The Ukrainians insisted that they were a different nationality, albeit one with strong ties to the "Russian cultural realm".
During both the Bezler and Mozgovoi interviews the issue of prisoners was raised. Both sides reported that their men were mistreated and even tortured while in captivity. Interestingly, during the Bezler interview there were two Ukrainian officials present, one human right activist and another who was representing the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense for the topic of POWs. They both readily admitted that Bezler treated the Ukrainian prisoners not as prisoners at all, but as guests: they were free to walk around, they ate and slept with Bezler's men, they were treated with kindness and hospitality. In once instance he even fed them red caviar! But the very same Bezler openly admitted that "we take no prisoners from the Nazi death squads" confirming what I have said many times: the Russian kindness and generosity towards Ukrainian POWs only extends to regular army units - captured death squad members are immediately executed.
There are hundred of small moments and exchanges which I wish I could convey to you, but that would take too much space and time. What I will say is that it was quite amazing to see enemies talking to each other in a very friendly manner. I was also amazed at how readily the Ukrainians agreed that the Ukraine must rid herself from the Nazis and the oligarchs. In various occasions people on both sides said "let's do that together!". Others were more dubious. Frankly, I am extremely impressed by the courage and decency of many of the Ukrainians in these interviews who, while standing their ground on the issue of the territorial integrity of the Ukraine, quite openly said how much they hated the Nazis and the oligarchs. I sure hope that God will protect these men for their courage.
Both Bezler and Mozgovoi looked very, very good. The latter especially surprised me by explicitly stating that his goal was regime change in Kiev and not just the separation of Novorussia which he clearly sees as a only temporary solution and as a necessary self-defense measure. Clearly, both Bezler and Mozgovoi are first and foremost anti-Nazis and both of them see that there is not "Novorussian solution". Mozgovoi explicitly stated that he think that both sides could live together if the Ukrainians got rid of their Nazis and oligarchs.
While I have always said that the only possible stable solution of the crisis is a de-nazification of the Ukraine and a conversion of the current Banderastan into a "mentally sane" Ukraine, I am not naive and I also see that this might take a decade or more. However, seeing how Mozgovoi and his Ukrainian counterparts agreed on the need to de-nazify and de-oligarchise (is that English?) I see that there is hope because the bottom line is this: both sides have much more in common than what separates them!
Again, these were regular Ukrainians, not crazed Nazi death-squad members, I understand that. And the two sides do disagree on fundamental issues. I see that too. But I also see that there is a basis, a minimum in common, to negotiate. This does not have to be a war of extermination.
The Ukraine as we knew her is dead. Now we have Crimea and Novorussia which are gone forever, and a rump-Ukraine I call "Banderastan" which is occupied by the US CIA, Ukie Nazis and oligarchs. My hope is that the just as the Ukrainian civil war turned into a war for the self-determination and liberation of Novorussia, so will the war for self-determination and liberation of Novorussia turn into a war for the liberation of Banderastan from its US/Nazi/oligarchic occupiers. If that happens and if a new Ukraine eventually emerges, then I have no doubt that the people of the Ukraine will agree that each region should have the right of self-determination ranging from cultural right to full separation. Only then will we really find out which regions want to stay and which ones want to leave forever.
In the meantime, I am very positively impressed by the Novorussian field commanders. Bezler and Mozgovoi of course, but also Givi, Motorola, Zakharchenko, Kononov and the others are all strong figures capable of both fighting and talking. Strelkov, alas, is still more or less in political no man's land and I am very concerned about his proximity with the blogger el-Murid who is clearly a "gateway" to the "hurray-patriots" and "Putin bashers" which are being used by the Empire to try to discredit Putin. Still, the political infighting amongst Novorussian leaders continues and there is still no clear leader. Hopefully, the upcoming elections will help to solve this issue.
The Saker
Then you should love the cleanup of Ukraine were radicals bite the dust instead of running rampant. If i were You i would be secretly happy for every volunteer being martyred.Petro007 wrote:I am an Ukrainian Jew and not from Canada but from USA - a first generation descendant of migrants from Ukraine. I do visit Ukraine from time to time.
Petro007 wrote:They may seize Kyiv and Lviv. It will be worse than Afghanistan + Checnnya I + Chechnya II.
Let them feel that the Ukrainian Nation WILL NOT surrender to their imperialistic ambitions. By G-d's help, we shall prevail!
Home
Latest images
Register
Log in
higurashihougi