Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

Labrador wrote:

hoom wrote:That model of 20385 is inaccurate (I think early version), this is the correct version

The mast, antennas different but no changes for armament a light frigate and small 9M100 SAMs can be quadpacked in Redut cell's clearly more capable than 20380 1st variant
and first true serious surface combattants for PF since almost 30 years !

Correct, this is first post-Soviet new ship for Pacific Fleet that can give JMSDF run for it's money

It's crazy how even though it only has 1/3 displacement of Udaloy destroyer it still carries almost same amount of firepower

PapaDragon wrote:

Correct, this is first post-Soviet new ship for Pacific Fleet that can give JMSDF run for it's money

It's crazy how even though it only has 1/3 displacement of Udaloy destroyer it still carries almost same amount of firepower  

In one vs one it can win against those japanese destroyer that are still armed with only 8 antiship missiles. It has enough redut for every missile plus to destroy any helicopter that comes close. On the other hand oniks and kalibr are more lethal and difficult to deal with.

Yes and no. A modern Udaloy could carry ~100 cells (redut and uksk). But if you compare to their actual armement yes.

The mast, antennas different

Which is a very important difference though (assuming Zaslon system actually works properly).

It's crazy how even though it only has 1/3 displacement of Udaloy destroyer it still carries almost same amount of firepower

It packs a hell of a lot of capability into a pretty small package,

I still say they should make a big 20385 build rather than the long-term faffing around with much bigger & in some ways less capable 20386.
I can see how a program initially intended to make a minor rework of 20385 with more powerful engines & optimisation of interior (& modular bays &...) can wind up with the 20386 but I feel a reset back to a much more limited change would be more cost/time effective, then build at least 12.

PapaDragon wrote:
Correct, this is first post-Soviet new ship for Pacific Fleet

Not completely the first the Gromkiy/20380 is yet arrived last month to Vladivostock from Komsomolsk-on-Amur in service very soon before Gremyashchiy/20385 next year
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корветы_проекта_20380

hoom wrote:I still say they should make a big 20385 build rather than the long-term faffing around with much bigger & in some ways less capable 20386.

I think they did it because of their blue navy ambitions. Look in their 2017 Naval doctrine. As funny as it sounds, they want to remain no. 2 after 2030.

5000 instead of 4000 nmi range means that ship can reach Syria from Polyarny without stopping in Algeria to refuel. It also means that it can reach India directly from Vladivostok without stopping in Vietnam.

And the armament is the same.

Labrador wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Correct, this is first post-Soviet new ship for Pacific Fleet

Not completely the first the Gromkiy/20380 is yet arrived last month to Vladivostock from Komsomolsk-on-Amur in service very soon before Gremyashchiy/20385 next year
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корветы_проекта_20380

Actually 20380 Sovershenny was the first new ship for PF in 2017. So Gromky is no. 2.

Isos wrote:.........
Yes and no. A modern Udaloy could carry ~100 cells (redut and uksk). But if you compare to their actual armement yes.  

Well that's the future and they should get it done ASAP, until then Gremashii is toughest thing in the neighborhood

hoom wrote:..............
I still say they should make a big 20385 build rather than the long-term faffing around with much bigger & in some ways less capable 20386.
I can see how a program initially intended to make a minor rework of 20385 with more powerful engines & optimisation of interior (& modular bays &...) can wind up with the 20386 but I feel a reset back to a much more limited change would be more cost/time effective, then build at least 12.

Derzkii (20386) is designed for different set of tasks, frigates are expected to handle larger work

Gremashii is powerful but lacks flexibility, it's excellent for guarding bastions and littoral work but for something much further away you need platform like Derzkii, less firepower but more range and options

verkhoturye51 wrote:

hoom wrote:I still say they should make a big 20385 build rather than the long-term faffing around with much bigger & in some ways less capable 20386.

5000 instead of 4000 nmi range means that ship can reach Syria from Polyarny without stopping in Algeria to refuel. It also means that it can reach India directly from Vladivostok without stopping in Vietnam.

22160 has range 6000nm

I think they did it because of their blue navy ambitions. Look in their 2017 Naval doctrine. As funny as it sounds, they want to remain no. 2 after 2030.

Well in what sense?  blue water capability ? not necessarily in terms of firepower i dotn think it would be a problem.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:22160 has range 6000nm      

Long range patrol boat cannot substitute heavily armed ocean-going corvette. Gremyashchy and Derzky have the same weapons suite, the only difference is range.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Well in what sense?  blue water capability ? not necessarily in terms of firepower i dotn think it would be a problem.

Precisely, they prioritise getting more blue water ships, that's why they spent all the extra time and money that hoom was complaining about to upgrade Gremyashchy class to Derzky class. Yes, firepower is the same on both classes, as I said, range is the difference they wanted to make. They crossed the line between defensive and offensive, area denial and ara control.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:22160 has range 6000nm      

Long range patrol boat cannot substitute heavily armed ocean-going corvette. Gremyashchy and Derzky have the same weapons suite, the only difference is range.

Hull........................lemgth........width...............draft
Gremyashyi.............90m...........13m.................3,7m
22160.....................94m...........14m.................3,4m

Size of hulls say one - you can have similar full displacement I.e. you can easily arm 22160 with same weapons but still enjoy better buoyancy,range and top speed.
I hope RuNavy will change their mind and start making corvettes on 22160 hulls.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Well in what sense?  blue water capability ? not necessarily in terms of firepower i dotn think it would be a problem.

Precisely, they prioritise getting more blue water ships, that's why they spent all the extra time and money that hoom was complaining about to upgrade Gremyashchy class to Derzky class. Yes, firepower is the same on both classes, as I said, range is the difference they wanted to make. They crossed the line between defensive and offensive, area denial and ara control.

Yup but Drezkyi is poorly equipped in anti-ship capabilities so its better to assumeit has anis sub mainobjective.[/quote]
[/quote]

Gremashii is powerful but lacks flexibility, it's excellent for guarding bastions and littoral work

Which is really what Russia needs...

Size of hulls say one - you can have similar full displacement I.e. you can easily arm 22160 with same weapons but still enjoy better buoyancy,range and top speed.

22160 is actually a lot lighter 1500ton vs 2200+ so (if it doesn't outright capsize/sink) by the time you add the radar, EW & weapons of 20385 to 22160 you're going to have a much heavier 22160 -> much less speed & range for the same fuel/engine.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup but Drezkyi is poorly equipped in anti-ship capabilities so its better to assumeit has anis sub mainobjective.

It has 8 UKSK cells like frigate classes Neustrashimmy, Gepard, Grigorovich, Yasen SSGN or destroyers Udaloy and Sov. Among modern ships it's second only to Gorshkov. It's pretty much safe against 90 % of world navies and I don't think they'll send him to engage the US.

Among modern ships it's second only to Gorshkov.

Grigorovich with new buk M3 missiles is better too. Those steregouchy derivated classes carry the 40km range 9M96 missile, they don't have good enough radars for tge longer ones.

New buk m3 missile is ARH and with a range with 70km. So it can protect a fleet or deny airspace above land for exemple in syria.

hoom wrote:

Size of hulls say one - you can have similar full displacement I.e. you can easily arm 22160 with same weapons but still enjoy better buoyancy,range and top speed.

22160 is actually a lot lighter 1500ton vs 2200+ so (if it doesn't outright capsize/sink) by the time you add the radar, EW & weapons of 20385 to 22160 you're going to have a much heavier 22160 -> much less speed & range for the same fuel/engine.

wiki for 22160

wiki for 20380


Not sure if you noticed that you compare full displacement  to standard. Compare also propulsion power. No,fuel volume wont change why? now there are many empty space for modules. Not to mention that originally 22160 had corvette variant with Kalibrs/Paket/Shtill (24 missiles BTW) so it is designed do carry weapons. Why would she capsized?

Compared to 22160 20380 is simply loosing in all categories.

Displacement.............................standard...............max
22160 ...........................................1500t..................???
22380............................................1800t..................2220t

Engine power...............................kW
22160..............................................25 000
20380..............................................17 140

verkhoturye51 wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Yup but Drezkyi is poorly equipped in anti-ship capabilities so its better to assumeit has anis sub mainobjective.

It has 8 UKSK cells like frigate classes

20386 Derzky has Kalibrs?! since when?  all sources I have access to say 8x Kh 35. 22160 can carry even in patrol version 4xKalibr tho

Not sure if you noticed that you compare full displacement  to standard.

No I hadn't.

However:
http://russianships.info/boevye/22160.htm
22160 max = 1700ton
http://russianships.info/boevye/20380.htm
20380 max = 2100ton
20385 max = 2300ton
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8F%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%B9_(%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82)
20385 max = 2500ton

There is a lot of uncertainty about the actual displacements but 20385 is clearly significantly bigger than 22160.

Isos wrote:

Among modern ships it's second only to Gorshkov.

Grigorovich with new buk M3 missiles is better too. Those steregouchy derivated classes carry the 40km range 9M96 missile, they don't have good enough radars for tge longer ones.

New buk m3 missile is ARH and with a range with 70km. So it can protect a fleet or deny airspace above land for exemple in syria.

We were focusing solely on anti-ship weaponry. Here it becomes obvious that Derzky is newer design and better than anything constructed before in modern Russia.

Do you want to talk about air defense? You are comparing Grigorovich's Buk to Derzky's S-300 derivate Redut.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
20386 Derzky has Kalibrs?! since when?  all sources I have access to say 8x Kh 35. 22160 can carry even in patrol version 4xKalibr tho

They say so, and also english and russian Wiki. Besides, Stereguschchy and Gremyashchy are old designs and have been upgraded to Derzky. So only real comparisons are between ships that will be in construction in the future, namely: Karakurt, Bykov, Derzky and Gorshkov. Otherwise you can compare them also to 1970s Kara class cruiser. Now, Derzky is a clear winner against Bykov.

Derzkii doesn't have integrated UKSK launchers (Kalibr), it can carry 4 Kalibr in container

It has 2x4 Uran launchers (Kh-35)

We were focusing solely on anti-ship weaponry. Here it becomes obvious that Derzky is newer design and better than anything constructed before in modern Russia.

Well, that's not a surprise. You are comparing a ship with universal VLS to ships designed around specific huge antiship missiles 40 years ago if not more.

A modern destroyer of 160m would carry 2 helicopters and hundred of VLS cells. That should be gorshkov M. So much better than Dzerki.

Do you want to talk about air defense? You are comparing Grigorovich's Buk to Derzky's S-300 derivate Redut.

9m96 missiles comes from s-400 system but aĺl the radars have nothing to do with s-400.

Poliment-redut is a naval s-350. Still nothing to do with s-400 or s-300.

On those steregouchshy derivates corvettes, they have nothing comparable to s-300/400, neither to poliment redut.

S-300/400 have been designed since more than 15 years. Buk M3 with ARH missiles is from few years ago. It is a very capable system much more than the pantsir derivated radars with a 40km missile on steregouchy classes.

Isos wrote:

We were focusing solely on anti-ship weaponry. Here it becomes obvious that Derzky is newer design and better than anything constructed before in modern Russia.

Well, that's not a surprise. You are comparing a ship with universal VLS to ships designed around specific huge antiship missiles 40 years ago if not more.

A modern destroyer of 160m would carry 2 helicopters and hundred of VLS cells. That should be gorshkov M. So much better than Dzerki.

Do you want to talk about air defense? You are comparing Grigorovich's Buk to Derzky's S-300 derivate Redut.

9m96 missiles comes from s-400 system but aĺl the radars have nothing to do with s-400.

Poliment-redut is a naval s-350. Still nothing to do with s-400 or s-300.

On those steregouchshy derivates corvettes, they have nothing comparable to s-300/400, neither to poliment redut.

S-300/400 have been designed since more than 15 years. Buk M3 with ARH missiles is from few years ago. It is a very capable system much more than the pantsir derivated radars with a 40km missile on steregouchy classes.

@Isos - early S-300 variants and navalised Fort date from early 80s, so they are not 15 years, but more than 35 years old!

S-350 is more like containerised Buk, with new missiles, radars and guidance!

Isos wrote:A modern destroyer of 160m would carry 2 helicopters and hundred of VLS cells. That should be gorshkov M. So much better than Dzerki.

Yes, destroyers are better than corvettes. But you need also corvettes. And these should be Derzky, not Bykov.

Isos wrote:Poliment-redut is a naval s-350. Still nothing to do with s-400 or s-300.

On those steregouchshy derivates corvettes, they have nothing comparable to s-300/400, neither to poliment redut.

S-300/400 have been designed since more than 15 years. Buk M3 with ARH missiles is from few years ago. It is a very capable system much more than the pantsir derivated radars with a 40km missile on steregouchy classes.

You're correct to say that S-350 wasn't developed from S-300. But also S-300V was designed by different bureau as S-300P, so this doesn't really matter. What matters is, that Steregushchy, Gremyashchy and Derzky all do have Poliment (navalised S-350) and this system is better than Buk. Buk-M3 is in use since 2016 and has a range of 70 km, while S-350 will be in use since 2020 (navalised Poliment since 2011) and has a range of 150 km. Yes, it's designated as middle range AD system, but only in comparison to new long range S-400 with 400 km range. When it comes to old systems, its range is more comparable to S-300 than Buk.

Yees, destroyers are better than corvettes. But you need also corvettes. And these should be Derzky, not Bykov.

I was just pointing the fact that comparing a corvette with older ships makes no sense.

They also need destroyers armed with more VLS than a dzerky or a steregoushchy.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Isos wrote:Poliment-redut is a naval s-350. Still nothing to do with s-400 or s-300.

On those steregouchshy derivates corvettes, they have nothing comparable to s-300/400, neither to poliment redut.

S-300/400 have been designed since more than 15 years. Buk M3 with ARH missiles is from few years ago. It is a very capable system much more than the pantsir derivated radars with a 40km missile on steregouchy classes.

You're correct to say that S-350 wasn't developed from S-300. But also S-300V was designed by different bureau as S-300P, so this doesn't really matter. What matters is, that Steregushchy, Gremyashchy and Derzky all have Poliment (navalised S-350) and this system is better than Buk-M3. Buk is in use since 2016 and has a range of 70 km, while S-350 will be in use since 2020 (navalised Poliment since 2011) and has a range of 140 km. Yes, it's designated as middle range AD system, but only in comparison to new long range S-400 with 400 km range. When it comes to past systems, it's really more comparable to S-300 than Buk.

Yes. The problem is Steregushchy, Gremyashchy and Derzky don't have Poliment. They have redut and less capable radars that allows them to use only the 40km range missiles.

So buk M3 is better than that. They specially made the ARH missile for buk because older ones had a limit of 40km because of SARH missiles directed by ships or ground radars. The range was considered too small for such systems. So saying that the 40km 9M96 missile is better makes no sense. And again the 150km range 9M96M2 is not deployed on those corvettes because they don't have Poliment radar.

Poliment and 150km 9M96M2 on Gorshkov is better than any naval air defense in russian navy actually, only s-300M on Peter the great has some advantage over it while technologicaly speaking poliment redut is newer.

hoom wrote:

Not sure if you noticed that you compare full displacement  to standard.

No I hadn't.

However:
{} 22160 max = 1700ton[/strike]

i still  believe that a manufacturer info is more accurate than bloggers:
http://www.zdship.ru/products/shipbuilding/spec-ships/1462/

Depending on source they say: standard displacement  =1500tons (designer says that with ~2000t displacement is has buoyancy no worse then 11356)

Lets agree somewhere between 1500 and 2000 tons IMHO depending hwat is actually carried as mission specific composition. For me it can be 1700t I dont mind at all

There is a lot of uncertainty about the actual displacements but 20385 is clearly significantly bigger than 22160.

The it would be even worse for 20380      

So what we have:
20380 - lower speed, weaker propulsion (17 vs 25MWt ie. by ~50%) slightly more displacement ) and less autonomy (15 vs 60 days), range 3500-4000nm -8 Kh-35
20385 - same  only full emplacement bigger - 8xKalibrs
22160  - autonomy 60days, range 6000miles + mission specific 8 Kalibrs or Kh-35

As some of designer options show there were offered version with 24xShtill  missiles + 2 Paket torpedoes. So yes it could  be a nice corvette then.


20380  pricetag was...13bln R when series was stopped.
20385  pricetag ........14-18bln R
22160........................9bln R  (I've quoted source earlier on in 22800 thread)

https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%90%D1%81%D0%B73/


Mind that both 20380 and 20385 are not ordered anymore (and some of 20380 orders were cancelled) if am I correct?  This clearly shows that 20805/385 were far from being good enough corvettes. True it was first post Soviet ship this class. But you know you never expect firs pancake tastes good either. And they were very expensive too.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Isos wrote:A modern destroyer of 160m would carry 2 helicopters and hundred of VLS cells. That should be gorshkov M. So much better than Dzerki.

Yes, destroyers are better than corvettes. But you need also corvettes. And these should be Derzky, not Bykov.

Derzky is good ship nevertheless she is actually close to frigate size.  3400t standard displacement ? ?  ?  Admiral Grigorovich has 3,600t...

Bykov is also modular design ship. Pricetag in basic config (same as Derzki) is 3x cheaper... (9 vs.29 bln Rub). Note with comparable  buoyancy and range. So I'd say Russian navy needs both. For different set of  tasks.

PapaDragon wrote:
Derzkii doesn't have integrated UKSK launchers (Kalibr), it can carry 4 Kalibr in container

It has 2x4 Uran launchers (Kh-35)

doesnt she carry 2x 40 foot containers? + 2x20foot?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......

PapaDragon wrote:
Derzkii doesn't have integrated UKSK launchers (Kalibr), it can carry 4 Kalibr in container

It has 2x4 Uran launchers (Kh-35)

doesnt she carry 2x 40 foot containers? + 2x20foot?

Yes but only one can be stored in helicopter bay, rest of it is for supplies and other equipment

Ship basically has two modes:

1) Anti-sub mode where helicopter is carried and ship is supposed to operate solo near the coast

2) Anti-ship mode where UKSK container is carried and ship is supposed to operate as part or larger group where it provides AA cover and 4 cruise missiles while​ other vessels provide anti-sub cover

hoom wrote:That model of 20385 is inaccurate (I think early version), this is the correct version

I found in all my graphics the right

PapaDragon wrote:

Yes but only one can be stored in helicopter bay, rest of it is for supplies and other equipment

Hmm that would explain this picture? Look at size or Ka-27 vs container. It looms both are 40 food ones. Me thinks 2x4 kalibers if needed can be carried. Same with 22160.
BTW did you notice power increase? vs 20380? 44 MW vs 17,6 MW !!!