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PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5960
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Post n°451

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:34 pm

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3082195/chinese-navy-puts-two-new-nuclear-submarines-service

I won't be surprised if later some older SSBNs r converted to SSGNs &/ special purpose subs.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/free-rein-for-chinas-navy-as-virus-halts-us-ships/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=e7b6212ddd-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_05_05_08_53&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-e7b6212ddd-31607385&mc_cid=e7b6212ddd&mc_eid=5455568640

Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed May 06, 2020 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)

GarryB

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Post n°452

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Fri May 01, 2020 8:26 am

Well if they are going to get the blame for this outbreak then perhaps they should create plague ships to transport and release diseases so that they can name them the American virus or Irish virus... the Irish potato virus... the Scottish Vindaloo virus... Launch a virus container like a torpedo onto a beach to start the infections... make it look like a coke bottle... it wont stand out amongst the billions of others...

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°453

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Sun May 10, 2020 11:35 pm

As I expected, they would use CVs in pairs. Interesting video:

GarryB

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Post n°454

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Mon May 11, 2020 8:33 am

Yeah, there is nothing there that seems to show this video was made by the Chinese government or the Chinese Navy, so I would take opinions expressed in that video as being just opinions.

Even if the maker of the video had access to top secret US Intel... that would make it as reliable as the people who thought Iraq had WMDs and were on the brink of using them... amongst other serious failures like not seeing the 11/9 attacks coming despite listening to every ones phone and electronic communications around the world 24/7.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°455

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Mon May 11, 2020 3:09 pm

His guesstimates make sense. To counter the USN & RN, at least 2 CVs will be needed while they deal with Taiwan &/ Vietnam, not to mention Japan.
They'll also have Kinzhal-like Ms on their H-6Ns & perhaps J-20s.
For now, China is content to project power into its nautical backyard and over adjacent areas that it considers crucial, such as the South China Sea, Taiwan and Japan. In turn, that requires an ability to neutralize U.S. forces and bases capable of interfering with, say, an invasion of Taiwan. Hence, Beijing’s new interest in long-range weapons, such as ballistic missiles and missile-armed bombers.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/back-future-china-putting-hypersonic-missiles-1950s-bomber-100172

..the long range of the Chinese ALBM could permit new options against U.S. military installations on Guam, in Japan, and for mobile targets like carrier strike groups from launch points over the Chinese littoral, or within the first island chain, where the bombers can be better protected by land-based air defense systems and tactical aircraft. https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FAS-ALBM.pdf

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/air-launched-df21d-missile/

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/why-xi-wont-repeat-ming-dynasty-mistakes/?mc_cid=9729f5807c&mc_eid=5455568640

Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon May 11, 2020 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)

GarryB

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Post n°456

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Tue May 12, 2020 4:24 am

His guesstimates make sense. To counter the USN & RN, at least 2 CVs will be needed while they deal with Taiwan &/ Vietnam, not to mention Japan.

His assumptions make sense to a round eye westerner... but then all the crimes the west accuses Putin of doing like trying to murder rivals using polonium, and using novachok deadly nerve agents also to silence enemies seem logical to most western countries... and highly likely to be true because that is the sort of shit we would do to them if given half a chance.... how many leaders has the CIA murdered or tried to kill. It became comical with Castro.

But the fact is that his guestimates reflect more on the west and the US than it does on China... maybe China realises that an attack from the US is inevidible because the devil does not share power with anyone, so these carriers and ships are purely defensive so they can protect themselves and their own interests.

They have no reason to invade Vietnam or Japan... but it is very Ironic that France and the US and many western countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc) invaded Vietnam and saw fit to interfere there, and of course the Brits and the Yanks and the other allies invaded Japan and basically the US took control of the country after the end of WWII... what can you call that other than a colonial takeover...

For now, China is content to project power into its nautical backyard and over adjacent areas that it considers crucial, such as the South China Sea, Taiwan and Japan. In turn, that requires an ability to neutralize U.S. forces and bases capable of interfering with, say, an invasion of Taiwan. Hence, Beijing’s new interest in long-range weapons, such as ballistic missiles and missile-armed bombers.

The Bastards... are you trying to tell me those ruthless evil Chinese are developing forces strong enough to protect themselves from US interference in the region of the planet they reside in... outrageous... why isn't the UN doing something... didn't they know the US is the boss and they just have to accept their military hegemony whereever the US chooses to apply it? Rolling Eyes

..the long range of the Chinese ALBM could permit new options against U.S. military installations on Guam, in Japan, and for mobile targets like carrier strike groups from launch points over the Chinese littoral, or within the first island chain, where the bombers can be better protected by land-based air defense systems and tactical aircraft.

If America does not like that what the hell are they doing there in the first place... Guam is not native American soil, and nor is Japan... American forces have no business being there in the first place let alone bleating that a country that actually is in that region might have the potential to fight them off.

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°457

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Tue May 12, 2020 5:54 am

They have no reason to invade Vietnam or Japan...

Vietnam may need "to be taught a lesson" again, like in 1979, since it's not giving up on SC Sea claims & is getting in bed with US, Japan & India. China may invade some Japanese claimed islands. Okinawa was once a kingdom allied with China. Chinese & Japanese been invading each others' allies & coasts many times before.

and of course the Brits and the Yanks and the other allies invaded Japan..

they invaded Japanese held islands, not Japan proper. After the 1945 surrender, the US Army was on occupation duty.

are you trying to tell me those ruthless evil Chinese are developing forces strong enough to protect themselves from US interference in the region of the planet they reside in... outrageous...If America does not like that what the hell are they doing there in the first place... Guam is not native American soil, and nor is Japan... American forces have no business being there in the first place let alone bleating that a country that actually is in that region might have the potential to fight them off.

No surprise here: the West expects the status quo to continue & doesn't know how to adopt to the new reality & retreat w/o going to war. Garrisoning the World is necessary to protect the Pax Americana, just like garrisoning those SC Sea islands, Tibet, Inner Mongolia & Sinkyang is necessary to protect the reviving Chinese Empire, with Xi as an emperor all but in name: Chairman=Throneman.

Sujoy

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Post n°458

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Tue May 12, 2020 11:34 am

GarryB wrote:
But the fact is that his guestimates reflect more on the west and the US than it does on China... maybe China realises that an attack from the US is inevidible because the devil does not share power with anyone, so these carriers and ships are purely defensive so they can protect themselves and their own interests.

PLAN has launched hundreds of unmanned submarine connected with Beiduo NSS for undersea observation. PLAN stated Indian SSKs (Kilo, HDW, Scorpene) as well as SSNs can now be easily detected and destroyed.

GarryB

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Post n°459

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Tue May 12, 2020 2:19 pm

Saying things and them actually being true are not the same thing... if you listen to Trump US subs and aircraft can track any enemy, but American aircraft and subs are invisible... even in plain sight... as if it is a matter of will power rather than engineering.

miketheterrible

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Post n°460

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

miketheterrible Tue May 12, 2020 3:12 pm

Like how US claimed it detected all of Russia's Nuclear subs in one exercise in one area? That was hilariously bad lie.

Isos

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Post n°461

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Isos Wed May 13, 2020 2:14 am

How would a drone detect something that a sub with bigger sonar has hard time detecting ?

Any improvement in sonar system for drones that makes them detect subs easily would have been fitted to a sub with a bigger antenna and longer range.

GarryB

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Post n°462

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Wed May 13, 2020 7:59 am

Good point... plus sonar effective enough to find diesel electric subs are going to be expensive... making the drones very expensive...

And there is no way the drones could tell the difference between an actual Kilo or an Indian drone making the noises a Kilo makes during normal operations...

The scope for measure and counter measure is enormous and means on one side will ever really have domination in that sphere...

Sujoy

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Post n°463

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Wed May 13, 2020 10:36 pm

GarryB wrote:Good point... plus sonar effective enough to find diesel electric subs are going to be expensive... making the drones very expensive...

And there is no way the drones could tell the difference between an actual Kilo or an Indian drone making the noises a Kilo makes during normal operations...

The scope for measure and counter measure is enormous and means on one side will ever really have domination in that sphere...

Multiple UUVs could operate as a single swarm to confuse, distract, or overwhelm enemy defenses, or operate in combination with small underwater drones for that purpose. Networked together and connected to manned submarines, surface ships, or even aircraft, one or more of these unmanned underwater craft could just extend the situational awareness for the whole group along a broad front.

The benefits of using UUVs for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance functions is that UUVs offers a lower cost and reduced risk option, especially when attempting to gather information about heavily defended or otherwise restricted areas. With regards to UUVs, it also reduces the burden on larger submarines, allowing them to focus on higher priority missions that requirement their more expansive intelligence gathering and weapon systems.

Isos

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Post n°464

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Isos Wed May 13, 2020 10:55 pm

Network means some sort of signal. Subs are not that well connected and they better stay under water where signals can go. If you want them to be connected they will need to surface or use a remote sensor on the surface.

Any patrol aircraft will detect such network in the middle of the sea/ocean launch deapth charges anywhere where they find an emmiter.

GarryB

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Post n°465

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Thu May 14, 2020 9:52 am

Networked drones are a good idea, but not underwater where communication is reduced and restricted to avoid giving away your position most of the time...

Finding modern subs requires regular use of active sonar, which in itself makes you vulnerable to counter attack...

Sujoy

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Post n°466

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Thu May 14, 2020 12:07 pm

GarryB wrote:Networked drones are a good idea, but not underwater where communication is reduced and restricted to avoid giving away your position most of the time...

Finding modern subs requires regular use of active sonar, which in itself makes you vulnerable to counter attack...

Isos wrote:Network means some sort of signal. Subs are not that well connected and they better stay under water where signals can go. If you want them to be connected they will need to surface or use a remote sensor on the surface.

Any patrol aircraft will detect such network in the middle of the sea/ocean launch deapth charges anywhere where they find an emmiter.

I realize that electrical conductivity of saltwater makes radio communication very difficult underwater. But nonetheless SSKs, SSNs do communicate among themselves, isn't it? That means secure communication does exist underwater. Acoustics are the most suitable communication solution for UUVs.

Modern day UUVs are using pressure gauges, compasses and doppler sonar to keep themselves oriented. Video link handsets allows underwater drones to be controlled from the surface or by a diver. When fitted with a multibeam sonar system that can "see" in dark or murky waters. For example, the US Navy's Manta UUV is over 30 feet long and carries a payload of up to five tons, which can include additional smaller underwater drones, for which it acts like a mother ship, and torpedo weapons.

Swarms of cheap robot sub-hunters could blanket the oceans with acoustical and other sensors that could negate a submarine's ability to travel undetected underwater. UUVs can carry many types of sensors active and passive sonar, magnetic anomaly detectors, wake detection LIDAR, thermal sensors, laser-based optical sensors capable of piercing seawater and others

https://basicint.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/BASIC_Hambling_ASW_Feb2016_final_0.pdf

Inertial navigation supplements dead reckoning calculation of the UUV's current position based on the previously determined position and known or estimated speed over time and course with motion sensor (accelerometer) and rotation sensor (gyroscope) data. Also, UUVs use a Doppler velocity meter that acoustically estimates the drone’s velocity relative to the sea bottom and ultra-short baseline (USBL) positioning, which works by emitting a regular acoustic signal from a surface reference point, such as a support ship’s underwater beacon.

Isos

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Post n°467

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Isos Thu May 14, 2020 4:53 pm

Are you crazy ? Accoustic communication would reveal their position on any sonar hundreds km away.

Submarines communicate only for critical needs and they agree on area of deployment/operation before going at sea so that they don't attack each other.

Elctromagnetic signals don't work underwater. Only very low frequencies can penetrate but it is used to call a submarine to surface and use normal stelitte communication with HQ.

Submarines work on their own. Communicating is very danerous for them.

Sujoy

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Post n°468

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Thu May 14, 2020 6:43 pm

Isos wrote:Are you crazy ? Accoustic communication would reveal their position on any sonar hundreds km away.

Submarines communicate only for critical needs and they agree on area of deployment/operation before going at sea so that they don't attack each other.

Elctromagnetic signals don't work underwater. Only very low frequencies can penetrate but it is used to call a submarine to surface and use normal stelitte communication with HQ.

Submarines work on their own. Communicating is very danerous for them.

So you are saying that if need be a French SSBN cannot communicate with another French SSBN? If need be a Russian SSK cannot communicate with another Russian SSK?

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°469

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Thu May 14, 2020 8:48 pm

They can, but some1 else may be listening. Even if the signals r encrypted & r non legible, it'll reveal their presence & position.

Isos

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Post n°470

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Isos Thu May 14, 2020 9:39 pm

So you are saying that if need be a French SSBN cannot communicate with another French SSBN? If need be a Russian SSK cannot communicate with another Russian SSK?

SSBN will never communicate with other subs unless if its an emergency. They will only respond to HQ.

How would they know if the other sub wasn't taken by enemy and is trying to destroy them ?

Sujoy

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Post n°471

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Thu May 14, 2020 10:33 pm

Tsavo Lion wrote:They can, but some1 else may be listening. Even if the signals r encrypted & r non legible, it'll reveal their presence & position.

Isos wrote:SSBN will never communicate with other subs unless if its an emergency. They will only respond to HQ.

How would they know if the other sub wasn't taken by enemy and is trying to destroy them ?

SSBNs do communicate. Submarines can receive normal radio signals while submerged via either a deployable radio mast or periscope, a floating wire antenna, or on some ships a bouy antenna system. Submarines can also transmit while submerged via a bouy system. This allows the submarine to "clear datum" from the transmission source. Fast attack submarines check for traffic at routine intervals, SSBN's stay in continuous radio contact.

Isos

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Post n°472

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Isos Thu May 14, 2020 11:04 pm

Such systems are rather new and not really practical because you need to stay near surface. Modern radars can detect masts and periscops and they will detect any emmission of signals by the sub hundreds if not thousands km away.

The question is not is it capable or not but will they do it or not.

SSBN stay deap and answer only to the HQ. Their peace time mission is to stay undetected.

SSN don't check for traffic. They have sonars that can identify precisly any surface ship. Their data base has the signature of any big vessels and all warships.

There are some communication but certainly not routinely.

Last edited by Isos on Thu May 14, 2020 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tsavo Lion

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Post n°473

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Tsavo Lion Thu May 14, 2020 11:06 pm

..SSBN's stay in continuous radio contact.

wrong, they raise/trail an antenna at certain times to get/send messages. The TAKAMO planes & their Chinese/Russian counterparts r not in the air 24/7.

GarryB

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Post n°474

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

GarryB Fri May 15, 2020 4:28 am

SSBNs do communicate. Submarines can receive normal radio signals while submerged via either a deployable radio mast or periscope, a floating wire antenna, or on some ships a bouy antenna system. Submarines can also transmit while submerged via a bouy system. This allows the submarine to "clear datum" from the transmission source. Fast attack submarines check for traffic at routine intervals, SSBN's stay in continuous radio contact.

SSBNs have areas of operation and run at very very low speeds in those areas awaiting the signal to launch their missiles... they operate in relatively shallow waters and string towed antenna arrays able to pick up signals from HQ via satellite, or via an MPA type aircraft. When you say continuous radio contact... it would be more accurate to describe them as a special forces team up a mountain in Afghanistan... moving and hiding waiting for the order to attack the target they are watching... they don't transmit anything except in dire emergency... and they just listen for the instruction to attack... they wont even transmit a response to acknowledge they got the message... they will just attack.

If they respond the enemy will know where they are which puts them in enormous danger... for no benefit...

In comparison an array of drones all communicating will be noisy... a few direction finding systems will quickly locate the drones which can be picked off well before they find your subs.

Passive radio homing weapons could be developed especially for the job.

wrong, they raise/trail an antenna at certain times to get/send messages. The TAKAMO planes & their Chinese/Russian counterparts r not in the air 24/7.

Exactly... they might have prearranged communication times when a Bear is flying past at very low speed so its 3km long ultra long wave antenna hangs nearly vertically so it can communicate with deeply submerged subs, or they might operate near the surface with a long towed antenna array to pick up signals from satellite giving updates on targets or situational changes with orders to perhaps remain deep and wait for ULF signals to launch.

For the same reason stealth fighters don't have EW jammers and chaff dispensors... technically redundant and in practise self defeating... as they would make you more visible rather than less visible.

Sujoy

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Post n°475

Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

Sujoy Fri May 15, 2020 1:14 pm

Tsavo Lion wrote:
wrong, they raise/trail an antenna at certain times to get/send messages. The TAKAMO planes & their Chinese/Russian counterparts r not in the air 24/7.

SSBNs are required to maintain continuous communication. See this link below:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_QlEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA6960&lpg=PA6960&dq=SSBN+continuous+radio+contact&source=bl&ots=sPYyV42Ijc&sig=ACfU3U0NhEUPzKRTc8wUQH0OmJzVYDx5Hg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju5Ybg2LXpAhXP4zgGHST8Bw0Q6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=SSBN%20continuous%20radio%20contact&f=false

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