PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

What book is that, & when was it written? More frequent communication was needed before longer range SLBMs were put on SSBNs, as their patrol areas were closer to their targets while tensions were higher, & to make sure they r safe & ready.
It says: "ELF can provide continuous real time control capability". That's not = continuous communication at all times during current ops.

The nr 525 from the orginial type 054 frigate class is getting a refit. Looks like weaponry and sensors are getting updated, probably to type 054A standard.
If the first two ships gets a "A" refit the number 54A will rise to 32 ships.
32 ships in 15 years = 2,1 ships per year, not a bad production.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/us-china-tensions-poised-to-erupt-over-taiwan/?mc_cid=8e3e59de98&mc_eid=5455568640

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11703654/china-deploys-aircraft-carriers-stoke-tensions-us-warning-new-cold-war/

IMO, they'll invade the Pratas island- it's most distant from Taiwan & has strategic location in the North SC Sea. It also has a long airstrip & good lagoon.
The CV-16 & CV-17 could've practiced invading other islands closer to their bases, so sending both to the SC Sea now, with current PRC-US tensions, looks like the real thing to me. To contain Taiwan & force it to renounce independence, it must be truncated at sea & in the air. Also, taking Taiwanese held islands would outflank other claimants + help monitor & control the SC Sea.

https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2020/07/11/13148959.shtml

I doubt the USN will be able to deploy & keep 2 CVNs in West Pac/SC Sea anytime it wants. Here, "the tyranny of geography" will help PRC vs. "US hegemonism".

Major breakthrough! F-15 carrier aircraft successfully carried out the first night air refueling
According to the official Weibo of the People’s Liberation Army Navy (@人民 Navy) on July 27, the Navy's F-15 aircraft recently completed the first night air partner [buddy] refueling training, marking another breakthrough in the all-weather long-range combat capability of our carrier-based aircraft forces.
https://news.sina.cn/gn/2020-07-27/detail-iivhvpwx7752993.d.html?from=wap

Their J-20s can shoot down USN/AF tankers F-15/18/22s need to keep CVNs out of range, while J-11/15/16s can now operate longer/further away than before. Local superiority is achieved!

https://eurasiantimes.com/chinese-navy-installs-new-turbo-generators-to-power-electromagnetic-railguns-on-it-warships/

The China State Shipbuilding Corporation’s (CSSC) 704 Research Institute announced recently that its 20-megawatt power generators had entered service, the Global Times reported. That’s enough electricity to light up a city of 15,000.
According to sources, the new turbo generators will power railguns and electromagnetic catapults in PLAN warships. The turbogenerators quadruple the power generation capacity of existing power plants.

Chinas modification of thier Sovremennys seems to be almost ready.



YJ-12 antiship missiles replacing the Moskit, a 32 cell VLS replacing the Buk:s missile systems and a short range FL-3000 system with 24 missiles has been installed on the bow to compliment.
They have replaced the orginal Russian radars and EW suits for Chinese equivalents.
Out of the total 4 ships 3 have finished the updates and the last ship is close to finish.

Isos wrote:16 VLS in the front and in the back for 32 in total ? Or 64 in total ?

What VLs did they put ? HQ 6 ?

32 in total. The missiles would be the HQ-16C and the Yu-8 anti-sub missile so far aperently.

A good idea to keep the guns... they will be very useful supporting landings and with new technology in guided shells they could become rather versatile weapons... if they choose to buy of develop something similar themselves.

Have heard they had issues with the propulsion... hope that is sorted out too.

GarryB wrote:A good idea to keep the guns... they will be very useful supporting landings and with new technology in guided shells they could become rather versatile weapons... if they choose to buy of develop something similar themselves.

Have heard they had issues with the propulsion... hope that is sorted out too.

You would think they sorted it out otherwise it would be useless giving them such a large update.

Also the 4 four Sovrs China owns are they youngest. Russia should have learned from its mistakes from the earlier units when constructing these.

Isos wrote:Chinese Sovs are improved versions compared to soviet ones. I don't know about the propulsion but IMO they put their own engines during the upgrade.

Also, the last two are smaller and the guns in the back were removed.

Too bad Russia didn't upgrade its own Sovs with shtill launchers and replace the moskit with newer missiles like 16 kh35U.

The first two are just standard Soviet Sovremennys, production stopped when Russia went bankrupt in the early 90s and was then sold and finished for the Chinese.

The last two isnt smaller, just a updated version. The aft guns were removed in favor for a larger helicopter pad/hangar and more equipment like two kashtan ciws.

Kh-35 is older than Moskit and are designed for totally different jobs.

At the time the AEGIS cruisers were equipped with the Standard SAM system to defend carriers and themselves. The system was not designed to hit sea skimming missiles so missiles flying below 7m were safe.

The Moskit is a 4.5 ton missile that climbs to 300m just after launch to locate its target by radar and then drops down to about 3.5m all the way to impact.

They are a combined rocket ramjet powered missile that accelerates to about mach 2 by the time it reaches its target 120km away.

In comparison the Kh-35 was designed as a light anti ship missile that could be used on export ships and was designated SS-N-25... it is essentially a small Harpoon like missile but uses a sophisticated MMW radar guidance system that is rather hard to fool or jam.

It is subsonic and in its first models had a flight range of about 120km but in later models extra fuel and a new engine meant range was doubled to about 240km.

Too bad Russia didn't upgrade its own Sovs with shtill launchers and replace the moskit with newer missiles like 16 kh35U.

The engines are Ukrainian, so it is not really cost effective to first develop production capacity and then correct the design faults essentially for a cold war ship.

Makes rather more sense to upgrade the Udaloys and start work on new propulsion solutions for their future destroyers and cruisers...

Kh-35 can fly just as low but is also a smaller target with a smaller rcs. Moskit is faster but you can pack more kh-35 and the kh-35 goes also further woth a 260km range compared to 120km in low-low trajectory for Moskit.

The difference is that if you fire a Moskit and a Uran at an AEGIS class cruiser in the 1980s, the AEGIS cruisers can only defend itself using its Phalanx gatling guns, which fire a 50 cal DU slug at a rate of about 3,000 rpm but in short bursts... it is effective at ranges between 1.8km and about 500m... which is a distance of about 1.3km.

With the Moskit that means it would only have time for a couple of bursts, but with Uran it could fire significantly more and would be much more likely to get a kill.

The Speed of the Moskit means even if it got solid hits at 800m or less the missile would still likely hit the ship intact and destroy it... so the Phalanx will have about three seconds to shoot it down... and it is not that accurate...

The Moskit would more often than not sink the ship, while the Uran would more often than not get shot down.... which is why Sovremmeny class ships carried 8 Moskits instead of Urans.

The enemy navy has lots of different types of ships and not all need Moskits or bigger missiles... Uran is just fine against most small vessels or larger vessels like cargo and tankers...

Moskit isn't produced anymore also IMO.

Still advertised for export...

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/moskit-mve/

(note 140km is the range for the export model flying low all the way to the target... so climb to 300m or 0.3km altitude to find the target on radar and then drop down to below 7m altitude the rest of the way to the target.... using a climb to medium altitude for higher speed and more efficient use of the ramjet the range is increased to 240km in the export model).

Yeah engine ukrainian which basically gives no chance to upgrade. I just said it's too bad they didn't upgrade them, not they should upgrade them.

Not just marine engines... tank engines and engines for missiles like the Kh-59 and various cruise missiles were Ukrainian... but they had no other choice with those and designed and made their own.

With destroyers I suspect they might design a compact nuclear power plant that does not need to be refuelled during the entire life of the ship making it much cheaper to build and use on smaller ships...

GarryB wrote:

Kh-35 can fly just as low but is also a smaller target with a smaller rcs. Moskit is faster but you can pack more kh-35 and the kh-35 goes also further woth a 260km range compared to 120km in low-low trajectory for Moskit.

The difference is that if you fire a Moskit and a Uran at an AEGIS class cruiser in the 1980s, the AEGIS cruisers can only defend itself using its Phalanx gatling guns, which fire a 50 cal DU slug at a rate of about 3,000 rpm but in short bursts... it is effective at ranges between 1.8km and about 500m... which is a distance of about 1.3km.

With the Moskit that means it would only have time for a couple of bursts, but with Uran it could fire significantly more and would be much more likely to get a kill.

The Speed of the Moskit means even if it got solid hits at 800m or less the missile would still likely hit the ship intact and destroy it... so the Phalanx will have about three seconds to shoot it down... and it is not that accurate...

The Moskit would more often than not sink the ship, while the Uran would more often than not get shot down.... which is why Sovremmeny class ships carried 8 Moskits instead of Urans.

The enemy navy has lots of different types of ships and not all need Moskits or bigger missiles... Uran is just fine against most small vessels or larger vessels like cargo and tankers...

And you would compare the Moskit against the Chinese replacement the YJ-12?

Looking at numbers the YJ-12 has longer range, higher top speed and is capable of carrying a larger warhead.

And you would compare the Moskit against the Chinese replacement the YJ-12?

Looking at numbers the YJ-12 has longer range, higher top speed and is capable of carrying a larger warhead.

Not really a shock... first of all the Chinese are not idiots, and second they got export Moskits sold to the more than 20 years ago... which are basically missiles that entered Russian service in 1980... the missile code is 3M80...

You are telling me they improved the performance of a downgraded export missile that is now 40 years old... yeah, I believe that...

The Israelis took Soviet 122mm rockets and put them into production for themselves... they made the warheads slightly heavier and more powerful which slightly reduced their range and speed, but I suspect they don't care so much about the range and more about the effect on target...

GarryB wrote:

And you would compare the Moskit against the Chinese replacement the YJ-12?

Looking at numbers the YJ-12 has longer range, higher top speed and is capable of carrying a larger warhead.

Not really a shock... first of all the Chinese are not idiots, and second they got export Moskits sold to the more than 20 years ago... which are basically missiles that entered Russian service in 1980... the missile code is 3M80...

You are telling me they improved the performance of a downgraded export missile that is now 40 years old... yeah, I believe that...

The Israelis took Soviet 122mm rockets and put them into production for themselves... they made the warheads slightly heavier and more powerful which slightly reduced their range and speed, but I suspect they don't care so much about the range and more about the effect on target...

I asked your thoughts on the different missiles and you give a speech about the history on russian exports, Nice.

The PLAN will go from 20 operational aegis-type destroyers in mid 2020 to about 40 in 2025. Supported by about ~10 older class destroyers the navy will have around 50.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/the-chinese-navys-destroyer-fleet-will-double-by-2025-then-what/

I asked your thoughts on the different missiles and you give a speech about the history on russian exports, Nice.

I told you the origin of a Chinese missile you seem to think is wonderful and amazing... it was a clever design but adding more fuel to give it better range does not make it competitive with Onyx for instance...

Not to say it is a bad missile, they have adapted it to their own needs...

If you want a history lesson in the early 1990s the US Navy thought they would be clever and created a competition for a new sea skimming missile target and they offered something like 5 million dollars for the winner.

They were hoping to get the Russians to offer Moskit as an entry to get the 5 million dollars so they could then take it to bits and get some supersonic anti ship missile technology handed to them on the cheap.

The Russians needed money but weren't stupid... they entered a very early model Kh-31 anti radiation missile, which of course won because all the US alternatives were rubbish because they don't do low flying supersonic weapons very well.

The MA-31 that won was an old version that was optimised for a high altitude flight and a steep dive on a radar emitting target so the performance was pretty ordinary in the low flying high speed attack mode they wanted to test their ships against low flying high speed anti ship missiles.

In the end they realised Phalanx was useless against very high speed missiles... it lacked shell weight and effective range, and the aiming system suffered from radar returns off the water surface making very low flying targets hard to track, so they replaced it with a missile called Sea Ram, which was basically a frankenstein of Stinger and Hellfire bits cobbled together to make a self defence missile.

In that sense I would thing a Chinese upgrade of Moskit as well as versions of Yakhont would be very potent even today agaisnt the US Navy, and Navies that use US ships...

Rare photos of the type 93 SSN. It does have a resembles to french submarines more then Russian.