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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #8

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    Firebird


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    Post  Firebird Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:53 am

    I'm not sure why there's so much hysteria here.
    S-400s are staying, airbase is staying, ships and naval base... are staying.

    Only thing going (we are told) is the land forces. The same land forces lots here didn't want risked.
    (Don't risk troops, use planes people were saying on here!)
    Infact, the start of the land force use barely registered on here or anywhere else.

    Now the Syrians are in a far better position. They still have air cover and the enemy is massively weakened. Syrians have better equipment and are battle trained.

    The hysteria sounds like the bullshit on Britain's BBC. They called it a "Putin powerplay" and "Russia are running out of money". What jerkoffs.

    Land forces did their job. Ships, planes and S-400s etc will continue theirs. No drama, no bullshit. No problem.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:59 am

    We dont know what is staying. Apparently some Su-34's are currently heading home as per sputnik and tass.

    So what is staing at the airbase? Su-24's and probably Su-27SM?

    According to tass, they say a flight control center will stay....

    Very premature in my opinion. I think they are aiming for all planes to leave and just keep the base on minimum. But it is strange since they just recently introduced some newer ecm and other systems.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:05 am

    Realisticaly speaking, SAA needs to clear a tiny area - the border with Hatay province and the Turkish border in N. Aleppo.

    Once these are secured, it's game over.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:09 am

    I think it is a very good decision...

    Russia was never going to be able to stay there forever.

    By withdrawing most of their air power now they force Assad to negotiate in good faith with the opposition on fairer terms.

    the only solution to this conflict as I have always said was political.

    Without the Russian intervention the opposition with western support had no reason to speak to Assad.

    With the Russian intervention Assad had no reason to speak to the opposition.

    Now they have to cooperate to fight ISIS.

    Withdrawing now does not exclude a return if things go lob sided again, but by withdrawing now the solution should be long term and political and not lobsided Assad based on Assads terms... which could not last.

    Putin Genius. russia
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:16 am

    Who is there to cooperate with SAA? Some minor FSA "brigades" nobody cares about? C'mon... ISIS in Syria is in the same situation as the Third Reich in late 1944.

    I have a different opinion - the only solution to the war is military. More - war should be shifted from Syria to Turkey with massive armament support to Kurdish rebels.
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    Post  Guest Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:29 am



    Live stream of retreat ceremonies
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    Post  Guest Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:34 am



    FIRST VIDEO: Russian warplanes leaving airbase in Syria
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:37 am

    So this is being seen as a defeate of Russian forces? Kinda strange really, since Russia had one plane disaster due to Turkey.

    Regardless, if the people are celebrating Russias pullout as a retreat, then guarantee the Geneva ceasefire wont last and either Rudsia will have to move forces back or leave it all be. Others like US will take advantage of this as well. Guarantee it.

    Hopefully after a month or so we will have an idea what forces are staying in the airforce base.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:12 am


    Pretty good analysis from Reuters of all places, things must be going even better for Russia if these guys are publishing stuff like this. Of course we have obligatory ''weaponsed refugees'' BS.  Laughing

    Replace ''Vladimir Putin'' with ''Russia'' and you have a good writeup:



    Why — and how — Russia won in Syria.


    http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2016/03/15/why-and-how-russia-won-in-syria/

    “An attempt by Russia and Iran to prop up Assad and try to pacify the population is just going to get them stuck in a quagmire and it won’t work.” So said U.S. President Barack Obama when Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his military campaign in Syria to support the country’s authoritarian ruler.

    There’s just one problem, though: A day after Putin announced a Russian withdrawal from Syria, it’s clear that his gamble has turned into a major win for Moscow. Here’s what Russia achieved — and why it was so successful.

    First — and most importantly — Russian bombing turned the tide of the war in Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s favor. When the Russian military deployed to Syria, Assad was in serious trouble, with many predicting the regime could collapse. Five months later, after recapturing key chunks of territory in both the south and north, Assad clearly holds the military upper hand. Even Lt. Gen. Vincent R. Stewart, head of the United States Defense Intelligence Agency, admits “the Russian reinforcement has changed the calculus completely.”

    Russia’s bombing campaign did more than help Assad recover lost territory. Syria’s “moderate” Sunni rebels from the Free Syrian Army — many supported by Washington — suffer the brunt of the Russian bombing campaign, particularly in the north along the Syrian-Turkish border. Assad’s forces have almost cut supply lines from Turkey to Washington’s Sunni allies, and they are squeezed between Assad on one side and Islamic State on the other. As a result, Moscow verges on achieving a key objective of turning the Syrian war into a binary choice for the West between the horror of Islamic State and the brutality of the Assad regime. Given that American support for Islamic State is unthinkable, Moscow clearly hopes Washington will become more amenable to a long-term role for Assad in Syria — something Stewart himself concedes is likely.

    Second, Putin recently achieved an important diplomatic objective by forcing the United States to acknowledge that Russia plays a key role in determining Syria’s future. At the beginning of Russia’s intervention, Washington’s position was that any coordination with Moscow would be limited to military “deconfliction” talks to avoid an accidental clash between American and Russian forces.

    The most recent ceasefire beginning on February 27, however, was negotiated in Geneva directly between the United States and Russia. Both sides agreed to act as equal guarantors for the ceasefire, and Obama concluded negotiations by speaking directly to Putin. As icing on the cake, Moscow recently forced Washington to renounce its position that “Assad must go,” with Secretary of State John Kerry stating “the United States and our partners are not seeking so-called regime change,” and that the focus was “not on our differences about what can or cannot be done immediately about Assad.”

    Third, Putin responded to Turkey’s shoot down of a Russian jet by humiliating Ankara, an emerging rival in the Middle East and Central Asia. Russia deployed advanced S400 surface-to-air missiles near Turkey. With a range of 250 miles, the Russian military now dominates the skies over Syria and its immediate neighbors, effectively denying Turkish jets access to Syrian airspace.

    Putin also grievously wounded Turkey’s key rebel allies and close ethnic cousins, the Syrian Turkmen. Turkmen rebels reportedly killed the Russian pilots shot down by Turkish jets, and bombing the Turkmen allows Putin to both avenge these deaths — thereby playing to Russian public opinion — while degrading the effectiveness of one of Assad’s enemies.

    Putin also hit Turkey where it hurts by playing the “Kurdish card” against Ankara. Turkey worries that Syria’s Kurds, the Peoples’ Protection Units, or YPG, are close to establishing an autonomous state in northern Syria, running along the Turkish-Syrian border. Russia, though, plays on Turkish fears by providing air support for YPG efforts to fully control the Turkish-Syrian border. Russia, though, plays on Turkish fears by providing air support for YPG efforts to fully control the Turkish-Syrian border, and Moscow even reportedly deployed 200 troops to a Kurdish-controlled town right on the Turkish border.

    Finally, Putin’s Syrian campaign has contributed to weakening the European Union. NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe Philip Breedlove has said that Russia “weaponizes” refugees by bombing civilian targets and supporting Assad’s troops, thereby causing a substantially greater inflow of refugees into Europe — up to 100,000 from the city of Aleppo alone. Meanwhile, resentment toward Germany’s open-door refugee policy produces rising anger across the EU, with countries such as Austria even suspending participation in Europe’s Schengen agreement, which allows for free passage between member states. Schengen remains a core component of EU unity, and some argue the collapse of Schengen could be the beginning of the end for the EU itself.

    Looking at the scope of Putin’s Syrian “wins,” one major question jumps out: How did Russia manage to confound the naysayers by succeeding?

    Russia entered Syria with one overriding objective: Preserve the Assad regime. To avoid another Afghanistan-style quagmire, Russia relies on fighters from its Shi’ite allies, including Assad, Hezbollah and Iran. By picking a clear and achievable goal and then ensuring that Moscow and its allies all rowed in one direction, Putin enacted a textbook proxy strategy.

    Washington’s Syrian policy, meanwhile, remains a hopeless muddle. At various points the Obama administration insisted that “Assad must go” — and that Assad can stay. Its objectives have been to degrade and destroy Islamic State, reject broader cooperation with Moscow and partner in peace talks with Moscow.

    The United States’ search for moderate rebels led it to support the Free Syrian Army. But FSA militias sometimes tactically ally with al Qaeda’s Syrian branch — effectively putting Washington on the same side at times as the perpetrators of 9/11.

    Washington’s Sunni allies have not exactly been trouble-free either. Vice President Joseph Biden publicly accused the Turks, Saudis and Qataris of arming Syrian militants, stating “those allies’ policies wound up helping to arm and build allies of al Qaeda and eventually the terrorist Islamic State.” The United States also sees the Syrian Kurds as the most effective local anti-Islamic State force — yet Washington’s Turkish ally prioritizes attacking the Kurds over fighting Islamic state.

    The Obama administration’s proxy strategy epitomizes this confusion. One Pentagon program spent $500 million on a train and equip program for Sunni rebels. The end result was a grand total of 60 trained rebels out of a target of 5,400, and even then, the few trainees actually sent into Syria promptly turned their weapons over to al Qaeda.

    The apex of this failed strategy occurred when two American proxies recently fought each other. As part of their move to carve out an autonomous state, Syrian Kurds funded by the Pentagon recently attacked a CIA-backed rebel battalion, effectively placing two agencies of the United States government in a proxy war with each other.

    As Moscow exits the Syrian morass, the five-month-long military campaign represents a clear geopolitical win for Vladimir Putin.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:32 am

    S-300 deal is still ongoing. Delivories in August or Sept.

    That all said, as much as I feel this is premature, let us not forget that Russia stated that they would only be in Syria for 3 months. They been there for 5-6 months. What has been achieved? Syrian forces are far better equipped and trained, and have taken back most what was needed and continues to take back territory, and Russia got a perminent airforce base in Syria, before hand it was only a naval port that was barely functional. Putin has mentioned the bases will continue to be protected from threats: "from sea, air and land" so more than likely the planes left behind at the base will be something like the Su-27's sent there, Su-24 (maybe hand them to saaf) and Su-25. Su-34,30 and 35 may not be necessary now and having just a minor force available to keep presense and "just in case".
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:41 am

    http://tass.ru/en/defense/862425

    S-400 staying at airbase in Syria. So far, cobtingent will be smaller than it is now, but we dont know for sure what will stay. Place your bets. I already gave mine. Maybe they may keep some Su-30 there.
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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:42 am

    After mulling it over since last night, I cant help but think that this IS potentially a positive move, but that depends on the reactions of other players such as the turks saudis and americans.

    Do you really trust those players NOT to go scurrying back into syria and throwing away all agreements previously made now that russia has 'withdrawn'?

    I dont, and thats what worries me the most, IF those countries decide that this is a russian defeat (which it clearly isnt) then thats only going to encourage them to go back for more fighting, and within a month or two we could see a complete return to pre-russian intervention scenarios.

    On the other hand, how much of a withdrawal is actually taking place?

    The bases will remain.

    The air defence and defence on the ground will remain.

    The AF can be redeployed within hours and they can still fly missions from russian territory, use cruise missiles etc

    Russian capability to hit targets in syria actually wont be reduced by much at all.

    It feels like this withdrawal is almost symbolic and for show rather than actually ending its commitment to syria. The key point here as i said above is how the west and its retarded children take this, do they see it as russia helping the peace process, as trying to deescalate, do they take the military and geopolitical lessons from this russian stint in syria, or do they gorge on the 'russia weak', 'afghanistan 2.0' propaganda.

    If its the second one, then it could well be a case of russia winning the war and losing the peace that many on here scream about. Not saying I agree with that, but many will think that way until its clear exactly whats going to happen.

    One thing to watch, keep an eye on events in a certain country 404 over the next few weeks/months now that the russian focus will be off syria...








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    Post  Guest Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:51 am

    sepheronx wrote:http://tass.ru/en/defense/862425

    S-400 staying at airbase in Syria.  So far, cobtingent will be smaller than it is now, but we dont know for sure what will stay.  Place your bets.  I already gave mine.  Maybe they may keep some Su-30 there.

    Judging by some journalist sources on Twitter, SU30s will stay and 10 helicopters and all AD/EW systems. Rest is going home.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:53 am

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:03 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:http://tass.ru/en/defense/862425

    S-400 staying at airbase in Syria.  So far, cobtingent will be smaller than it is now, but we dont know for sure what will stay.  Place your bets.  I already gave mine.  Maybe they may keep some Su-30 there.

    Judging by some journalist sources on Twitter, SU30s will stay and 10 helicopters and all AD/EW systems. Rest is going home.

    Su-30's make sense since they are true multipurpose (jack of all trades sorta) jet and can be used for either air superiority or strike mission if needed. So it would be wise. But those Su-24M's are going to be phased out in the upcoming years, so why bother bringing them home? I think they may stay to be used for various rolls or to be handed over to SyAF as they are still in desperate need to capable strike crafts.
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:07 pm

    Kriva wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:S-300 deal is still ongoing. Delivories in August or Sept.

    Russian government at the time fucked up there is really nothing to talk about on that mutter.
    (Mistrals and some drones from Israel for screwing Iran) Rolling Eyes

    Deal is now on because of Ukraine.

    Russia is far stronger than it is showing and maybe hitting the table with the fist is needed (referring to Khrushchevs UN speach).

    Pulling out and trusting Erdoscum&co. is naive.?

    Lets see how this is going to work out (still have a bad feeling that Putin is going to be epically shafted like he was shafted with Libya)
    I'm usually looking at the things from money side of the things.

    Cost of the operations, does it cost so much to warrant pull out ? I don't think so.

    Whats there ? Iran, Saudi or fear from US and Turkey ?

    Saudi and Qatar offer.
    Could it be oil output cuts promised in the case of the pull out ?

    EU offer
    North stream 2 ?
    Removing sanctions.

    Cost was nothing. From what was told, the cost was purely coming from the training budget already approved and put forward as they have to use the procured equipment for testing, training of new pilots, and disposal of older munitions, etc. So the cost was nothing. This is more or less a move to see what happens next. The airbase will still be operational, just with a skeleton crew of a few jets, helis, air defense and EW and other subsystems. But if the need arises, they could bring the aircraft back via through Iran/Iraq, etc.
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    Post  ultron Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:24 pm

    Su-34s have left. Su-24s and Su-25s and Su-30s will leave tomorrow. There will be no planes left. Only a support center for monitor of ceasefire.
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    Post  Guest Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:28 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Interesting. From here it looks like one of the aircraft filming the voyage back is either a Su-30SM or Su-34 (waging on the former because of how far back the camera appeared) because of the angle that the canard protrudes out of the aircraft. Every Su-27 based aircraft I saw stationed in Syria had Hibiny pods mounted on them. The aircraft filming the flight back has a R-73 mounted on the outboard pylon where the Hibiny pod usually is.
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    Post  ultron Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:31 pm

    Basically, Putin gave Assad the middle finger. Assad has been full of himself, says he wants to liberate all of Syria. After Russia leaves, Qaeda will take over Hama city easily and Assad will be screwed and will beg Russia to come back. cheers Putin shows Assad who is boss.

    Don't forget, Russia is the only country whose mainland spans inter continental distance. Russia is a super power. Syria is small and weak. cheers
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    Post  short_fuze Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:27 pm

    Firebird wrote:I'm not sure why there's so much hysteria here.
    S-400s are staying, airbase is staying, ships and naval base... are staying.

    Only thing going (we are told) is the land forces. The same land forces lots here didn't want risked.
    (Don't risk troops, use planes people were saying on here!)
    Infact, the start of the land force use barely registered on here or anywhere else.

    Now the Syrians are in a far better position. They still have air cover and the enemy is massively weakened. Syrians have better equipment and are battle trained.

    The hysteria sounds like the bullshit on Britain's BBC. They called it a "Putin powerplay" and "Russia are running out of money". What jerkoffs.

    Land forces did their job. Ships, planes and S-400s etc will continue theirs. No drama, no bullshit. No problem.

    I suspect the land forces were mainly used for training - TOS-1A, T-90, etc, etc, Also tactics and battlefield management. Remember the photo of #GorkaGuy at the front? Maybe he was they to observe how the Syrians were performing and assess whether they could handle things properly, rather than directing things.
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:06 pm

    Not seen this commented on elsewhere but Putin's action here, in effect handing over pole position to the UN, is exactly in line with his multi-polar world comments in the UN last September.

    Lavrov has also been making the same point re any further NATO action in Libya.
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:08 pm

    The RuAF Su-34 pilots certainly got a hero's welcome when they got home this morning. The crowd even gave the aircrew the 'bumps'. Amazing.

    https://twitter.com/miladvisor/status/709740177846104064
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:16 pm

    VORONEZH, March 15. /TASS/. The withdrawal of the main part of the Russian Aerospace Force grouping from Syria will be carried out as scheduled, Aerospace Force Commander Viktor Bondarev told journalists on Tuesday. "It’s the decision of the supreme commander-in-chief and we will comply with it under the order within the established deadlines," Bondarev said.

    Earlier on Tuesday, the first group of Russian aircraft arrived at an airbase outside Voronezh, Central Russia, from Syria. The Russian Aerospace Force commander met the pilots at the airfield personally. Speaking of the operation in Syria that was launched by Russia on September 30, 2015, Bondarev said it was "a milestone event." "The newly formed branch (Aerospace Forces) of the Armed Forces has been conducting operations in Syria for five months. It was formed on August 1, 2015 and practically in 1.5 months embarked on its mission [in Syria]," the commander said.

    According to him, the Russian pilots in Syria fulfilled their combat tasks in Syria "very carefully," after checking each target several times and only then delivering strikes. They have successfully accomplished their mission. "We have shown to the whole world that the training of Russian air pilots is at the highest level. Throughout their stay in Syria there was no bombing raid that missed the target," Bondarev said.

    "We’ve shown the whole world the training of Russian pilots is at the highest level. Not a single bombing raid missed the target," Bondarev said at the special ceremony in honor of the first group of planes that returned home from Syria earlier in the day.

    He also said that Russia’s Aerospace Forces lost one pilot - Oleg Peshkov, commander of the Su-24 bomber that was downed by a Turkish fighter. "Of course, it’s an irreparable loss, but after this our pilots doubled their efforts to revenge their colleague’s death," the commander said.



    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/862482
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:59 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:http://tass.ru/en/defense/862425

    S-400 staying at airbase in Syria.  So far, cobtingent will be smaller than it is now, but we dont know for sure what will stay.  Place your bets.  I already gave mine.  Maybe they may keep some Su-30 there.

    Judging by some journalist sources on Twitter, SU30s will stay and 10 helicopters and all AD/EW systems. Rest is going home.

    Su-30's make sense since they are true multipurpose (jack of all trades sorta) jet and can be used for either air superiority or strike mission if needed.  So it would be wise.  But those Su-24M's are going to be phased out in the upcoming years, so why bother bringing them home?  I think they may stay to be used for various rolls or to be handed over to SyAF as they are still in desperate need to capable strike crafts.

    Agreed on Su-30, they can handle both aerial threats and land strikes if/when need arises.

    As for Su-24s, that is a lot of Fencers to just leave behind. This would actually be a good moment to deliver those Yak130s to SyAF.

    I do not think that Russia would pull troops out without doing homework on US, turks and saudis. That angle is definitely covered.


    Biggest thing here is that Russia is keeping the bases and this is HUGE. It means that Turkey will be geopolitically castrated.

    Russian Naval base in Syria means that Turkish control of Bosporus Straight loses most of it's relevance since Russia will be able to park any type of ship directly in the Mediterranean.
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    Post  ultron Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:03 pm

    Su-24, Su-25, Su-34 are all pulled out. SAA will be in big trouble when Nusra attacks today or tomorrow. Putin will sit back and watch Assad lose Hama city. Putin shows Assad he is nothing without Russian help.  cheers

    http://ria.ru/syria_mission/20160315/1389976995.html

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/al-nusra-front-promises-renewed-assault-following-russian-pullout-syria-1961680726

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