Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #5

Isos wrote:Maybe it's the first batch of the 76 jets only. They have never ordered such number of jets at once. Why would they risk with a new and technologicaly advanced su-57 ?

Or the newspaper did a mistake. It is common that normal journalist don't know what they talk about when it comes to military.

They were $100 million and too expensive to order, with a 20% reduction would put them at the cost of a Rafale.

If it is 80 million per jet, it would mean 32 ordered for that money.

Isos wrote:If it is 80 million per jet, it would mean 32 ordered for that money.

The way it works is 10% of the order will be fronted to the supplier and the rest must be financed.  The question is who is going to finance something at a loss?

What are you on about? Su-35S under the 2009 contract was something like 1,3 billion rubles per plane. And in 2015 it was 2 billions. Su-30SM go for 1,9 (70 billions for 36 planes in 2018). That leaked figure puts Su-57 at 2,3 billion rubles. With larger order.

If USA can get F-35 flyaway cost down to 85 million dollars, on par with F-15. So does Russia can do the same with Su-57 and Su-35S.

Serious Revamp! Russian Air Force Getting More New Gen Warplanes

Putin will be ordering more Stealth planes..

From 16 Su-57 , the order now will be 76 x su-57 by 2027

When considering the price in question one have always to mind how such a contract stipulated between the MoD and the Knaapo cover just the fly-away cost  + an unspecified series of post-production services, all at the extremely favorable conditions set up for "internal clients" and not also the project and development costs, covered by the contracts made instead with the Sukhoi design bureau, neither the State Test cost that the MoD do for itself nor at least the cost for construction and optimization of the assembly line that are instead covered by the first serial contract.
The usual price of a western plane is instead the result of all those prices combed together or even of those + the estimated  total cycle life costs.

Interesting stuff on Quantum radars or what the Russians call ROFAR (Radio Optical FAR)....The KRET project started in 2015 and is suppose to be finished by 2019. Some reports claim that ROFAR radars are planned to be produced serially in 2022 and will eqiup the Su-57's and eventually retrofitted into the Su-35's as well

If this really enters service it will be a game changer

In Russian
https://naukatehnika.com/fotonnye-radary-fotonika-stels-texnologii.html

PapaDragon wrote:
Money part explained (don't worry, it's not written by Axe, I checked)

Here Is Russia's Plan to Build a Fleet of Su-57 Stealth Fighters

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/here-russias-plan-build-fleet-su-57-stealth-fighters-58342

The article misses the major point in that this procurement confirms that many more aircraft will be built both for domestic and export purposes as well. The program is a decades long program which is mentioned in the "fine print" in Putins speech and there is nothing 'hazy' about the numbers. The 'profit' margins do not serve shareholders, it is more aligned with R&D needs and future developments. The state ensures future and current orders and is effectively the shareholder. Exports are a bonus if negotiated beneficially.

Dreams of the regiment: for military fighters Su-57 create special military units

Fifth generation aviation regiments will cover the main strategic directions

Bogdan Stepovoy Alexey Kozachenko Aleksey Ramm

For the Su-57 fighters, whose entry into the Armed Forces was announced by President Vladimir Putin, new aviation regiments will be formed . As told to Izvestia by several sources in the Ministry of Defense, these military units will have a fundamentally different structure . In particular, they will include special ground units responsible for the radar stealth of the aircraft . Experts believe that the "fifth generation" regiments are created to cover the main strategic areas: the Far East, South-South and North-West Russia .

The fact that by 2027 76 Su-57 fighters will arrive in the VKS, Vladimir Putin said at a military meeting in Sochi on May 15. Such a number of aircraft will allow to equip at once three regiments of a two-squadron structure, each of which should have 24 aircrafts each. Four more cars, the Izvestia interlocutors clarified at the Ministry of Defense, will get into the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center. There, instructor pilots will begin training pilots for the "fifty-seventh."

Three regiments for VKS
Now, the VCS is considering two options for deploying parts to which the Su-57 will arrive. The most likely is the creation of a new aviation regiment and the re-equipment of the two existing ones. It cannot be ruled out that the fifth generation airplanes will receive existing units. According to Izvestia sources in the Ministry of Defense, the final decision on this issue will be made after agreement with the United Aircraft Building Corporation (UAC) on the schedule for the supply of aircraft to the troops.

Most likely, the “fifth generation shelves” are created to cover the main strategic directions. One of them will be based in the East, the second - in the South-West, the third - in the North-West of the country, says military expert Dmitry Boltenkov. In his opinion, there is a high probability that the pilots of the 23rd Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 303rd Mixed Aviation Division in the Khabarovsk Territory, stationed in Dzemgi, will be one of the first to join the new fighters. This airfield is used for testing aircraft. Y. Gagarin (located near Komsomolsk-on-Amur), which will be responsible for the serial production of domestic stealth fighters.

- In the VKS try to send a new technique in the first place in those parts that are close to the manufacturers. This choice is also supported by the fact that the 23rd Air Regiment has experience in mastering modern technology: several years ago it was the first part of the VKS, which received the Su-35 fighter, - said Dmitry Boltenkov to Izvestia.

The military leadership has been pursuing this approach in adopting new equipment for the VKS for many years. In particular, the Su-30SM fighters were the first to receive the 120th mixed aviation regiment from Domna, which is located near Irkutsk, where these aircraft were manufactured.

Su-57 is currently actively developing new types of weapons. In particular, the aircraft will receive a new ultra-long-range hypersonic air-to-air missile R-37M, which can hit high-speed air targets at a distance of more than 300 km.

Only experienced pilots
Special attention will be paid to the training of personnel for the new units, say sources of Izvestia in the Ministry of Defense. At the Su-57 installed a large number of sophisticated weapons and high-tech equipment, as well as new engines - to manage them will require specialists and pilots of the highest qualification.

To fly on planes of the fifth generation of the Su-57 will first allow the most trained pilots, former head of the 4th army of the Air Force and Air Defense, Hero of Russia Lieutenant General Valery Gorbenko told Izvestia.

“New aircraft will be put into service gradually,” he said. - First, the planes will be run-in at the plant, then they will be sent to the State Flight Test Center of the Ministry of Defense named after V.P. Chkalov in Akhtubinsk. Here they will check the equipment and weapons of each aircraft, conduct control tests, and some pilots will retrain for a new aircraft.

"Fifth generation air regiments" will also receive fundamentally new ground equipment. In particular, mobile hangars will be manufactured to work with Su-57 fighters, where you can track the stealth coverage of the vehicles, which makes them invisible to enemy locators, and find out how the flights affected the visibility of the fighter in radar, infrared and other detection spectra. Personnel will be checking the on-board equipment and the Su-57 plating for abnormal radio-electronic radiation.

Full Article
https://iz.ru/879224/bogdan-stepovoi-aleksei-kozachenko-aleksei-ramm/sny-polka-dlia-istrebitelei-su-57-sozdaiut-osobye-voennye-podrazdeleniia

dino00 wrote:Dreams of the regiment: for military fighters Su-57 create special military units

Fifth generation aviation regiments will cover the main strategic directions

Bogdan Stepovoy Alexey Kozachenko Aleksey Ramm

For the Su-57 fighters, whose entry into the Armed Forces was announced by President Vladimir Putin, new aviation regiments will be formed . As told to Izvestia by several sources in the Ministry of Defense, these military units will have a fundamentally different structure . In particular, they will include special ground units responsible for the radar stealth of the aircraft . Experts believe that the "fifth generation" regiments are created to cover the main strategic areas: the Far East, South-South and North-West Russia .

The fact that by 2027 76 Su-57 fighters will arrive in the VKS, Vladimir Putin said at a military meeting in Sochi on May 15. Such a number of aircraft will allow to equip at once three regiments of a two-squadron structure, each of which should have 24 aircrafts each. Four more cars, the Izvestia interlocutors clarified at the Ministry of Defense, will get into the Lipetsk 4th Combat Training Center. There, instructor pilots will begin training pilots for the "fifty-seventh."

Three regiments for VKS
Now, the VCS is considering two options for deploying parts to which the Su-57 will arrive. The most likely is the creation of a new aviation regiment and the re-equipment of the two existing ones. It cannot be ruled out that the fifth generation airplanes will receive existing units. According to Izvestia sources in the Ministry of Defense, the final decision on this issue will be made after agreement with the United Aircraft Building Corporation (UAC) on the schedule for the supply of aircraft to the troops.

Most likely, the “fifth generation shelves” are created to cover the main strategic directions. One of them will be based in the East, the second - in the South-West, the third - in the North-West of the country, says military expert Dmitry Boltenkov. In his opinion, there is a high probability that the pilots of the 23rd Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 303rd Mixed Aviation Division in the Khabarovsk Territory, stationed in Dzemgi, will be one of the first to join the new fighters. This airfield is used for testing aircraft. Y. Gagarin (located near Komsomolsk-on-Amur), which will be responsible for the serial production of domestic stealth fighters.

- In the VKS try to send a new technique in the first place in those parts that are close to the manufacturers. This choice is also supported by the fact that the 23rd Air Regiment has experience in mastering modern technology: several years ago it was the first part of the VKS, which received the Su-35 fighter, - said Dmitry Boltenkov to Izvestia.



"Fifth generation air regiments" will also receive fundamentally new ground equipment. In particular, mobile hangars will be manufactured to work with Su-57 fighters, where you can track the stealth coverage of the vehicles, which makes them invisible to enemy locators, and find out how the flights affected the visibility of the fighter in radar, infrared and other detection spectra. Personnel will be checking the on-board equipment and the Su-57 plating for abnormal radio-electronic radiation.

Full Article
https://iz.ru/879224/bogdan-stepovoi-aleksei-kozachenko-aleksei-ramm/sny-polka-dlia-istrebitelei-su-57-sozdaiut-osobye-voennye-podrazdeleniia

The fact that they give just 4 planes on 76 as going to Lipetsk could be an indication that this will be a completely new order, not comprising the already ordered 12/15 for training, experimental units.

Arrow wrote:How exactly does this ROFAR radar work? This is not just a photon quantum radar. I think the photonic phased array, the feed network from the oscillator, instead of delivering RF signal is replaced with fiber optics of various length. But this is stillThis is still the PESA and AESA antenna? Quantum radar works based on quantum entanglement.

Maybe Mindstorm knows?

Doesn't NATO have anything similar? Since NATO invents everything there should already be articles in Popular Mechanics about this high tech
that is only possible in the "west".

Cyberspec wrote:Interesting stuff on Quantum radars or what the Russians call ROFAR (Radio Optical FAR)....The KRET project started in 2015 and is suppose to be finished by 2019. Some reports claim that ROFAR radars are planned to be produced serially in 2022 and will eqiup the Su-57's and eventually retrofitted into the Su-35's as well

If this really enters service it will be a game changer

In Russian
https://naukatehnika.com/fotonnye-radary-fotonika-stels-texnologii.html

The claim that any of the EM frequencies associated with this device will penetrate a meter of lead is utter garbage. There will be tomographic probing of
the target aircraft interior possible. But it will not resolve any useful information since the wavelengths that are able to penetrate are too large to resolve
fine features like circuit boards, etc. The value of ROFAR is being able to image the target aircraft at greater distances and immune to RAM and shaping
stealth tricks.

I passed the article on ROFAR to a friend of mine who is into physics and related science and this is his explanation

The article still goes on about quantum, photon, electron jibberish, When you read the simple explanation it says the interaction between optical and microwave frequencies.

The original research in the bibliography (1985) is more precise.

“Methods of forming spatial characteristics of arbitrary shape of receiving antenna arrays (AR) are described using means of coherent optics and holography. Coherent optical processors AR are considered. with various functionalities, the results of experimental studies. For engineering and technical workers specializing in the field of optical information processing, antenna technology, radio and sonar. "

Источник контента: https://naukatehnika.com/fotonnye-radary-fotonika-stels-texnologii.html
naukatehnika.com  

This basically is an exact description of what this technology is without unicorns and fairies.

Incoherent and coherent frequencies is the key. The difference between a 5 watt globe and 5 watt laser is monumental. or the difference between what explains 'gravity' and a magnet. Same principle but difference in frequency and coherence.

They are able to to visualise (opticaly) using more coherent frequencies in the x-ray and microwave ranges.

If I am not wrong 2 SU 57 were ordered before so with this 76 we have 78 ordered for now? But also before 16 were mentioned are those 16 part of this 76?

Vladimir79 wrote:

The way it works is 10% of the order will be fronted to the supplier and the rest must be financed.  The question is who is going to finance something at a loss?

The government.

They need su-57. First because syrian experience proved that su-57 could be a major help for military action specially against advanced adversaries and second because new generations of aircraft bring new technologies that can be used on other project and the country keeps the lead in new techs so it worth investing in it even if you loose some $.

Otherwise you keep upgrading old mig-29s and su-27 and save your money with newer but still limited technology and became weaker and end up buying french tech like on your su-30SM.

Isos wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

The way it works is 10% of the order will be fronted to the supplier and the rest must be financed.  The question is who is going to finance something at a loss?

The government.

They need su-57. First because syrian experience proved that su-57 could be a major help for military action specially against advanced adversaries and second because new generations of aircraft bring new technologies that can be used on other project and the country keeps the lead in new techs so it worth investing in it even if you loose some $.

Otherwise you keep upgrading old mig-29s and su-27 and save your money with newer but still limited technology and became weaker and end up buying french tech like on your su-30SM.

The Su-57 is as advanced (apart from stealth) as the Su-35.

The main benefit of it is it will force spending onto the adversaries, to upgrade the radars/ SAM systems.


The US already started due to that the development of dual band radars : D

marat wrote:If I am not wrong 2 SU 57 were ordered before so with this 76 we have 78 ordered for now? But also before 16 were mentioned are those 16 part of this 76?

AGAIN. The 2 are the First Serial phase , every Russian aerial program got such developmental step.
Planes are not the main focus of these contracts however as they are really centered on setting up a dedicated assembly line at the selected PO (Production Organization): the production of the said 2 planes is merely a way to optimize the performance of said assembly line.
Instead of filling up all stations of the assembly line they made pass the first one through all of it, check every operations and the time it take, evaluate them, made corrections and let pass the second one to check if the modifications work.
They then evaluate what its the best set up between the two, modify the assembly line a last time and begin the serial production that's covered ALWAYS by a different contract.

In the case of Su-57 I am inclined it will be 2 F.S. + the 12/15 one (Lipetsk training centre+ experimental unit)+ 76 (4 more for Lipetsk + 72 for operative units).

marat wrote:If I am not wrong 2 SU 57 were ordered before so with this 76 we have 78 ordered for now? But also before 16 were mentioned are those 16 part of this 76?

Like Marcelogo wrote, probably yes....3 x Regiments of 24 aircraft plus 4 for Lipetsk.

IMO, this is just the beginning as aircaft based on the T-50 platform will eventually form the backbone of the Airforce for several decades to come..

The Su-57 is as advanced (apart from stealth) as the Su-35.

The main benefit of it is it will force spending onto the adversaries, to upgrade the radars/ SAM systems.


The US already started due to that the development of dual band radars : D

No it's not. Su-35 is way behind su-57. Composite materials are much more advanced than on su-35 and will be used in civil project to make the planes lighter and stronger.

Aesa radar is 20 years ahead of irbis E in terms of technology used. They will be used to improve all the radars.

OLS is much better, it is a Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector that is much more effective than ols-30/35. It can be used on ground vehicles to watch passively the skies at the borders.

Most of its technologies are still in development like its engines that will help create civilian engines for supercruising jets.

US won't dare to shoot at a russian su-57. No weapon is invicible and in 20 years radars won't have issues tracking stealth. Russians know that just like french or US. What matters is have the technologies and injecting them into civilian project to stay on the top or you end up buying foreign stuff and be dependent on foreigbers like russia during the 00s or even 5 years back when they had no engines for their ships.

Isos wrote:

The Su-57 is as advanced (apart from stealth) as the Su-35.

The main benefit of it is it will force spending onto the adversaries, to upgrade the radars/ SAM systems.


The US already started due to that the development of dual band radars : D

No it's not. Su-35 is way behind su-57. Composite materials are much more advanced than on su-35 and will be used in civil project to make the planes lighter and stronger.

Aesa radar is 20 years ahead of irbis E in terms of technology used. They will be used to improve all the radars.

OLS is much better, it is a Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector that is much more effective than ols-30/35. It can be used on ground vehicles to watch passively the skies at the borders.

Most of its technologies are still in development like its engines that will help create civilian engines for supercruising jets.

US won't dare to shoot at a russian su-57. No weapon is invicible and in 20 years radars won't have issues tracking stealth. Russians know that just like french or US. What matters is have the technologies and injecting them into civilian project to stay on the top or you end up buying foreign stuff and be dependent on foreigbers like russia during the 00s or even 5 years back when they had no engines for their ships.

The whole "AESA is 20 years ahead blah blah blah" is rather funny. AESA has its benefits but ultimately it comes down to absolute power. Irbis-E has 400km detection range because of its modern tech and absolute power behind it (20kw feeding it). N036 has same detection range but significantly more in terms of cost due to each T/R Module as GaAS aren't cheap. If GaN modules were used which I doubt, it would have a lot of potential but once again, requires the power to feed it.

There is little info regarding the absolute capabilities of its imaging systems so I wouldn't jump around just yet since most of Russian MoD mentioned how Su-35 is very close to performance of the Su-57. Not exactly same but close. Of course you are right that the material for the structure (composites) are far more advanced than that on Su-35 and is set for future of other aircrafts being produced now for civil and military use.

I said AESA technology of byelka is 20 years ahead. It's their first aesa so in the performances will improve later. Irbis is from the 00s while Byelka from today.

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:

The Su-57 is as advanced (apart from stealth) as the Su-35.

The main benefit of it is it will force spending onto the adversaries, to upgrade the radars/ SAM systems.


The US already started due to that the development of dual band radars : D

No it's not. Su-35 is way behind su-57. Composite materials are much more advanced than on su-35 and will be used in civil project to make the planes lighter and stronger.

Aesa radar is 20 years ahead of irbis E in terms of technology used. They will be used to improve all the radars.

OLS is much better, it is a Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector that is much more effective than ols-30/35. It can be used on ground vehicles to watch passively the skies at the borders.

Most of its technologies are still in development like its engines that will help create civilian engines for supercruising jets.

US won't dare to shoot at a russian su-57. No weapon is invicible and in 20 years radars won't have issues tracking stealth. Russians know that just like french or US. What matters is have the technologies and injecting them into civilian project to stay on the top or you end up buying foreign stuff and be dependent on foreigbers like russia during the 00s or even 5 years back when they had no engines for their ships.

The whole "AESA is 20 years ahead blah blah blah" is rather funny.  AESA has its benefits but ultimately it comes down to absolute power.  Irbis-E has 400km detection range because of its modern tech and absolute power behind it (20kw feeding it).  N036 has same detection range but significantly more in terms of cost due to each T/R Module as GaAS aren't cheap.  If GaN modules were used which I doubt, it would have a lot of potential but once again, requires the power to feed it.

There is little info regarding the absolute capabilities of its imaging systems so I wouldn't jump around just yet since most of Russian MoD mentioned how Su-35 is very close to performance of the Su-57.  Not exactly same but close.  Of course you are right that the material for the structure (composites) are far more advanced than that on Su-35 and is set for future of other aircrafts being produced now for civil and military use.

But SU-57 is 30 years newer. SU-35 is a spectacular airplane, but wise nations must have new type of an aircraft ready at the moment when its predecessor reaches its highest! Russians are doing just what they should do, and just on time with SU-57.

Isos wrote:I said AESA technology of byelka is 20 years ahead. It's their first aesa so in the performances will improve later. Irbis is from the 00s while Byelka from today.

Obviously you already flew it, ISOS, so you know! SU -57 is new generation plane!