Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

I think the entire "generation" branding is highly misleading to begin with. As countries have different contexts for that.
As an example, a highly intellectual avionics complex is a requirment of the fifth generation placed on the Su-57, But the systems on the Su-57 are by virtue of time way more advanced that on the F-22 which, also is classified as fifth gen and also checks the label of advanced avionics for it's own timeframe and context.

By the the requirments of the F-22, the Su-57 would convert more into a 5 plus plus or something, as it exhibits a lot of additional capability. As a somewhat general rule, a generational leap is translated into at least 20 percent increase in effectiveness, at least by russian standards, i can see the Su-57 fullfilling that very well. You have a massive engagement range vs enemy ground installations, highly varied options for AIR to AIR BVR, Extremely advanced ECM, the best multispectral sighting system put into a plane, very short take off and landing, massive cut in parts number compared to Su-27, and the whole range of incremental upgrades brought by being newer, from newer RAM formulas to newer software and computer (10 years is considered an era in that field), and so on.

It's apalling that this aircraft was seen as fifth gen in name only.

LMFS, of course a person would live in delusion if the tempest being a mockup is no issue, but an actual prototype of LTS would be the target of skepticism and mockery inspite of itclearly showing that it was not a mockup.
The closest thing i can see to an actual sixth gen would be a Su-57 deeply modified to have what the engineers are saying it's supposed to have in later stages of its life.

One more reason to not check secret projects or similar drivel cesspools, in that case.
There haven't been a single piece of legitimate evidence that the Su-57 or LTS lacked funding, it all stems from the days in which people confused FGFA with PAK-FA (which shows a great deal about how educated they are) and started thinking that india bailing out meant no money.

Similarly, i've seen speculations that the exhibits are there to draw money into the LTS program, which is bull since sukhoi said they did it over their own expense since there is a niche in the market.

Everyones perception of a 6th gen aircraft is entirely different but of course what I see being perceived as 6th gen is rather 5th gen + but when your saying one aircraft design is one gen higher there has to be a significant technological edge that it must have to be granted to be called as such. aircrafts with stealth and manueverability are better than non treated stealth aircrafts as we noticed from the su-27 to T-50 patent. however aircrafts that fly near orbit will be perceived better than stealth aircrafts because air to air missiles have to burn alot of fuel to travel up than down and keeping the nose radar pointed at the higher altitude aircraft will be significantly hard. The higher altitude aircraft will get the entire body reflection of the low flying aircraft instead of just the front face where RCS is the lowest.

GaAS radars was all 5th gen now there is a good chance that GaN radars will be called 6th gen with all radar visibility for TFX and NGAD but even the TFX is being offered something similiar in other words i can see both aircrafts being comparable to this at best I would label this as 5th gen plus. The performance for GaN will be better than GaAS and have a little higher bandwidth range but that is about it. Photonic radars have lower background noise levels that the difference is rather drastic especially with EW suppression protection it has. The su-57 in 2014 Rostec book was showcased with GaN EW modules and according to some arguements at times it can be believed that it has 360 degree radar coverage since the back modules by a KRET official stated passive and active detection in which I say he is no fool and says what he means. no idea if these GaN modules can be plug n play for the F-35 https://www.qorvo.com/applications/defense-aerospace/radar#all-cat-products

Data speeds of tempest are the city of Edinburgh, or 10,000 times more than current systems, I dont know what the **** that vague explanation is, but a single photonic component on pdf page 25 https://itech.aorti.ru/upload/iblock/467/rti_ii_4_19_2017.pdf can go 400 gbs per second. Edinburgh with 4 other major cities amounts to 4000+ gbs per second https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_exchange_points_by_size . meaning 10 photonic radar modules would be enough for not just Edinburgh but the other 4 major cities included. this is what I mean by major difference in generation.

Now I cant say shit right now if 3 stream cycle engines determine next generation or gets the 5th gen +, but I will use the baseline range and supercruise capabilities of the Izdelie 30 to help me determine if it goes a generation up or gets a + for example if the range and speed of NGAD or Tempest are like 5-10% more than the 2nd stage engine with a little higher altitude performance i will just give a + if it is significantly more and has like a 10km altitude height difference in performance it deserves to be next gen. Russia will have easier luck with 3 stream engine than operating a detonation engine. We can all forget about the TFX because they want to go domestic on it, the only thing we can compare it to is radar capabilities to NGAD and Tempest

2007 or 2008 there were talks that the F-35 would get DIRCM fastforward to 2022 there is none implemented yet(probably expecting the same kind of shit for MSDM), yet it was promised a 100 kilowatt laser that destroys things physically while the Su-57 only blinds, next they propose MSDM a minauture self defense missile that is 1 meter long, yet no tests are conducted while the pantsir which is to be quadpacked is actually testing 1 meter missiles against small drones. Russia switched to creating their own infrared detection systems instead of being reliant on the French, can't compare IRST but I can compare this https://en.topwar.ru/181736-rosteh-predstavil-novye-kombinirovannye-pribory-razvedki-dlja-specpodrazdelenij.html to this https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/target-reconnaissance-infrared-geolocating-range-finder and say I think they caught up. But if Russia wants a MSDM kind of system for their aircrafts I think its more preferable to have UV, infrared and 360 degree AESA or ROFAR(for better targetting precision) all sensor fused on the aircraft before implementing it. But besides the avionics upgrade for the Su-57 we have yet to find out if some capabilities will be disclosed here. Using flares should set you a generation back

Also BAE Taranis, X-47B and Neuron all existed way before the Su-70 was even known fast forward again, you know those said countries developing said 6th gens have no production or in operation plans with any of those 3 yet Russia developed a much larger stealth drone with not only testing air to ground capabilities but also gave it a radar with air to air missile capabilities and are now moving on testing supersonic variants of the Su-75 to be unmanned, Krylo-SV is going to be using runways to fly and land with hypersonic speeds as having drone capabilities so they are closer to having a unmanned 6th gen aircrafts which might add a bonus microwave gun weapon but that we dont know yet.

Russia already has internal hypersonic air to ground missiles planned for Su-57, in before Tempest and NGAD try to promote this as a 6th gen feature

If Western fans are pissed about Pierre Sprey, Christopher miller or General browns replacement plan along with trying to put the F-22s back in service before getting replaced by NGAD, they are going to get more pissed when we run comparisons to the 2nd variant Su-57 to the NGAD or Tempest.

The hypersonic missile looks more like a supersonic ramjet, similar to the Onyx missile.Well, we do not know Cirkon's shape to this day.

So Russia cannot into hypersonic?

Looking at how the kh-31 is badly drawn I wouldn't make conslusion on the other missiles.

That is an old image from long time ago.



It has been posted here - https://www.russiadefence.net/t7618p375-su-57-stealth-fighter-news-5#248375

Ok so this is Brahmos NG.

Or NGAD BTW, which is supposed to be flying now already...

NGAD is not flying. A tech demonstrator was reported to have flown - which means a platform which tests some of the technology that will go into NGAD. Basically, it was the US equivalent of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_X-2_Shinshin

And as we all know the Japanese fighter is still many years away.

I think the entire "generation" branding is highly misleading to begin with.

You are right it is. I think it will slowly fade away though, thankfully. The jump from 4th to 5th stood out because the roughly one thousand fold reduction in RCS (in addition to the other approvements) was a true paradigm shift. The differences in the historical 'generations' weren't as substantial though and future ones don't look to be either. The easy pickings with stealth have been worked to death and so there is no substantial gains to be made there. Kinematics is limited by the pilot - and pilotless is experimental. And as for avionics and networking, sure that can be improved. But Moore's Law is dead, and has been for several years, and it's not coming back. The doubling in processing power every 18-24 months is gone for the foreseeable future; improvements will happen more slowly.

I'm sure marketing will keep the hype going for a while, but such days are numbered.

You got a very binary view of things, LMFS. There is no sudden transition. But the F-22 wasn't designed with the sensors and comms necessary to function in the next level of network centric warfare that US planners envision in the next ten to fifteen years. It would be an expensive fifth wheel - when operating, and its older generation stealth technology requires it to be a hangar queen. It's too expensive to be a mere ordinance truck like the F-15EX. And no "modest" priced modernization can change that.

I think the most interesting facet of SU57, is not the stealth, engines, weapons loadouts, radars and all this...

The most important and interesting facet of SU57 will be the data linking and ai remote input to drones like S70, orion, helios, grom.

I personally envision su57 controlling 3 grom wingman, with 4 s70 in full strike package preceded by Lancets, korsars, inokhodets, and a helios AWACS relaying info to all involved

The most important and interesting facet of SU57 will be the data linking and ai remote input to drones like S70, orion, helios, grom.

Yup, that and sensors. And that's also why the F-35 will operate for decades to come and the F-22 won't be worth it in 10-12 years. That's just how things are going.

The mission sets for su57 will be very interesting.

Blasting through and crippling west's integrated air power, downing awacs and refuelling aircrafts, even killing comms planes. Acting like a real felon.

It seems like su57 will take the mission from mig 31 and perform the air superiority /interception role

While mig 41 would take on an even greater space based envelope of missions including downing x 37 and sats in LEO

The Su-57 can't replace the MiG-31... it simply does not have the speed or height performance....

It will certainly make an excellent fighter and interceptor, but for pure interception nothing comes close to the MiG-31 in speed and height and therefore also missile performance... even firing the same missiles the MiG-31 spends most of its time supersonic at mach 2.4... and an altitude the Su-57 wont spend much time at all at.

Su-57 also wont be flying around at speeds greater than Mach 2 simply because it burns too much fuel.

It wont spend all its time subsonic.. super cruise at mach 1.6 or so is likely but not the same as Mach 2.4 out to 750km and back again like the MiG-31.

This means the MiG will be engaging enemy threats earlier and is more likely to shoot down aircraft with weapons on board instead of having to deal with all their launched munitions.

Gary wouldnt su57 perform this mission via stealth and drone?

For example against AWACS or Fuelling tankers SU57 could perform the same job of mig 31 in intercepting these targets in stealth and directing drones as well to launch missiles at those targets ?

I assumed it would do that role, because mig 41 seems it's going to be a plane for a completely different role with greater speed and altitude performance than mig 31.

And su57 stealth seems very useful to do this