Russian special military operation in Ukraine #16

Hole wrote:I´m coming back to the western supplies issue. I would say that some 50% is destroyed shortly after arrival,
25% on the way to the frontlines and the rest makes it. This is not much.

I mentioned it before, I would like to see more destruction of stuff after it was brought to the east. In that
instance the regime is wasting much more ressources for nothing. Manpower. Transports. Fuel. You name it.

Back in those days as I received my basic military training, they told us that it´s much better to injure an enemy
then to kill him. If he dies at the spot, his buddies take his ID and burry him. If there is time. If he is wounded, they
have to give him first aid, call in a medevac unit and later he has to be given care in an field hospital. This needs a
lot of ressources.

The same with weapons that are transported trough the whole country and then destroyed before they can be used.
Or captured, what´s even worse.

The whole story with the M777 howitzers shows that Russia is ahead of the game. One day the Ukros post a picture
with a gun for propaganda purposes, the next day the first gun is captured. Two days later a whole battery is destroyed,
all filmed by a drone. That tells you that the Russian Armed Forces know exactly where those weapons are.

Good old Bundeswehr AGA. We also wait until a real army arrives to help Germany.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
Cuuuuuute redirect all you wish.

I have called out dumb russian mistakes, that they shouldn't be making but I have also stated they will win the war, well unless the higher ups **** up that is.

Ukrainian failures? a failure implies they had a chance, in this case there is none they can either die quick or go death by 1000 cuts and they choose 1000 cuts.

I really cannot fault an enemy for failure if they did their best despite being put in a situation they had no hope of winning.

Your rather narrow sighted aren't you.

The Ukrainians are certainly admirable for their stalwart defense of Anglo-American interests and them trying to harm Russia as much as possible for the benefit of their patrons

What interests of their own they are fighting for and to what end I cannot say. But then nothing they've done over the last 30 years makes sense to me; over that time they lost a developed, high-tech & industrialized, highly educated, cohesive and potentially powerful and independent country. It's like a different civilization, between 1991 and 2022.
And the sad thing is, I think they're aware of it. They're aware of the fact that they have nothing left, ordinary civilians were saying so as much before the war broke out - that they hoped Russia wouldn't attack, there's nothing to take from them anyway.

As it is, although they are inflicting paper-cuts on Russia, each day is hundreds more Ukrainian soldiers dead, a further shutdown of the economy over scarce fuel and destroyed infrastructure, a further collapse of the state, and more people being made refugees through the ferocity of urban fighting. They are suffering immeasurably worse the longer the war goes on for. Which is why I say I can't figure out what they're fighting for, if they've lost anyway, and Russia isn't threatening their homes or their families. Surrender and get it over with, then start the road to recovery. Rather its the people for whom surrender isn't an option - that are controlling everyone else.

While Russia, has pretty much managed all the nasty surprises and tactics and is now directing the flow of the operation in a way that suits itself, minimizing its own casualties and maximizing the difficulties for supplying the Ukrainian forces and keeping them operational. For all you can say about Russian mistakes, Russia adapted very quickly to each new threat.

flamming_python wrote:


...
As it is, although they are inflicting paper-cuts on Russia, each day is hundreds more Ukrainian soldiers dead, a further shutdown of the economy over scarce fuel and destroyed infrastructure, a further collapse of the state, and more people being made refugees through the ferocity of urban fighting. They are suffering immeasurably worse the longer the war goes on for. Which is why I say I can't figure out what they're fighting for, if they've lost anyway, and Russia isn't threatening their homes or their families. Surrender and get it over with, then start the road to recovery. Rather its the people for whom surrender isn't an option - that are controlling everyone else.

While Russia, has pretty much managed all the nasty surprises and tactics and is now directing the flow of the operation in a way that suits itself, minimizing its own casualties and maximizing the difficulties for supplying the Ukrainian forces and keeping them operational. For all you can say about Russian mistakes, Russia adapted very quickly to each new threat.

It's not the paper cuts, what Ukraine are doing is gaining time for NATO to get more gear and troops trained in Poland and Germany to mobilize a large force against Russia. We have already seen that NATO have ways to get M777, not small things, to the front lines north of Kharkov, it's only going to get worse if Russia lets this hardware and troops in.

Isos wrote:Russia used 1000 cruise missiles the first week.

Is that true?

Thats a lot more than I would have expected. I thought maybe a couple of hundred...

Excellent if true BTW.

lancelot wrote:It only got worse after Macron came into power. He removes older systems from active service in France without putting new systems in service.

Arrow wrote:Zaporozhye Nuclear Power Plant will work for Russia – Russian Deputy Prime Minister Khusnullin.
This power plant has almost 6,000MW of power.

It is talked about a lot yes. But there is another power plant right next to that one as well.
Zaporizhzhia thermal power station. 3,650MWe coal power plant.
Stopped operating due to lack of coal transport. But now that it will be connected to the Donbass rail network I think it is a matter of time.

Plenty of Nazi's to burn, just use them

How many Russian and Donbass militia were stationed at the steel plant? Seen various numbers, but was wondering what everyone else had heard. Pretty sure these will now be directed towards other areas of the Donbass.

Be interesting to finally see what foreigners where living in the bowels of the plant.

NATO sends German howitzer Panzerhaubitze 2000 to Donbass

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-touts-generation-blinding-laser-095255076.html

IMO, Western arms shipments to Ukraine will just prolong this 1/2 war - the Russians have penty of older guns, CM & tanks to offset their losses.

flamming_python wrote:It's like a different civilization, between 1991 and 2022.

Most of eastern Europe runs on the fumes of now late Soviet Union. Ukrainians are not unique to this, to be honest, Russia was hit the most. Enough to see the output of science to understand that the whole region is still in the dark ages. You can't get lower than Ukraine tho.

d_taddei2 wrote:How many Russian and Donbass militia were stationed at the steel plant? Seen various numbers, but was wondering what everyone else had heard.

I heard claims they had sensibly 2000 troops around Azovstal. Roughly the same as what Azov was expected to have. I assume those troops after resting will move north and help with the assault.

d_taddei2 wrote:How many Russian and Donbass militia were stationed at the steel plant? Seen various numbers, but was wondering what everyone else had heard. Pretty sure these will now be directed towards other areas of the Donbass.

Be interesting to finally see what foreigners where living in the bowels of the plant.

I've seen numbers in the range of 2.5-3 k. Which  makes sense, as i don't think they had numerical superiority. Neither they needed it, considering artillery and aviation.

I was really hopping that Russia will pump in more regular infantry to do the legwork in the background. Other day, I've seen a video where some sort of marines or spetsnaz is providing support for logistical column. Couldn't they call up few thousand people from reserves or older class of conscripts to do that work and let these guys fight Ukrainians?

caveat emptor wrote:I was really hopping that Russia will pump in more regular infantry to do the legwork in the background. Other day, I've seen a video where some sort of marines or spetsnaz is providing support for logistical column. Couldn't they call up few thousand people from reserves or older class of conscripts to do that work and let these guys fight Ukrainians?

They need more than that. Basically, NATO is pushing Ukraine for a full mobilization, I think Zelensky said something about 1 million troops, don't know if he can do that or not, he tends to BS a lot. If NATO provides a wall of gear with the $40billion that US coughed up, and trains a large chunk of the Ukrainians on how to use it, say in Poland or Germany like they have been doing, then that will prolong the conflict and eventually grind Russia down. This means Russia will be forced to take all of Ukraine in a full war, not just the special operation in the east, or it will never end.

Erk wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:I was really hopping that Russia will pump in more regular infantry to do the legwork in the background. Other day, I've seen a video where some sort of marines or spetsnaz is providing support for logistical column. Couldn't they call up few thousand people from reserves or older class of conscripts to do that work and let these guys fight Ukrainians?

They need more than that. Basically, NATO is pushing Ukraine for a full mobilization, I think Zelensky said something about 1 million troops, don't know if he can do that or not, he tends to BS a lot. If NATO provides a wall of gear with the $40billion that US coughed up, and trains a large chunk of the Ukrainians on how to use it, say in Poland or Germany like they have been doing, then that will prolong the conflict and eventually grind Russia down. This means Russia will be forced to take all of Ukraine in a full war, not just the special operation in the east, or it will never end.

I don't think that number of 1 million is realistic. Clearly, Russians need more regular infantry. Also, bridges on Dnepr need to go. If Ukrainians really plan to that, they'll have to transport them. And start hitting bases in the west, where they train, with cruise missiles round the clock. Unfortunately, more people on Ukrainian side will have to die, for them to start refusing being sent to fight.

Erk wrote:...It's not the paper cuts, what Ukraine are doing is gaining time for NATO to get more gear and troops trained in Poland and Germany to mobilize a large force against Russia....

As much as I would want them to somehow wish this large pinata stuffing into existence I still have to ask where the hell is this large force supposed to come from?

They are already scrapping the bottom of recruitment pool and Ukrainians procreate slower than Pandas

But if they can do it I'm all for it, more the merrier, better to dispose of the problems now than to allow them to metastasize later

PapaDragon wrote:

Erk wrote:...It's not the paper cuts, what Ukraine are doing is gaining time for NATO to get more gear and troops trained in Poland and Germany to mobilize a large force against Russia....

As much as I would want them to somehow wish this large pinata stuffing into existence I still have to ask where the hell is this large force supposed to come from?

They are already scrapping the bottom of recruitment pool and Ukrainians procreate slower than Pandas

But if they can do it I'm all for it, more the merrier, better to dispose of the problems now than to allow them to metastasize later

How do you know Ukraine is scraping the bottom of the barrel?

Have you not considered that the better soldiers may be off in Poland and Germany being trained to come back with better equipment?

Also, a lot of what Ukraine has been doing in the Donbass is stalling for time, a prolonged battle, hence all the fortifications.

It remains to be seen if better trained and equipped Ukrainians are any more effective.

Tsavo Lion wrote:NATO sends German howitzer Panzerhaubitze 2000 to Donbass

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-touts-generation-blinding-laser-095255076.html

IMO, Western arms shipments to Ukraine will just prolong this 1/2 war - the Russians have penty of older guns, CM & tanks to offset their losses.

The pzh2000 is a  formidable system.  How many are they getting and how they supply them. Also how the operate them. While mobile artillery is pretty much essential in this type of conflict, if you cannot defend your guns from air attack, they will be scrap pretty quickly. After every 5-10 round mission they need to move at least 500-1000m to avoid counter battery fire. They cannot move far enough to avoid attack helos and SU-25s or drones. Their hot guns will light up an IR sensor like a goddamn christmas tree.

PZH2000 can churn through about 30t of ammo/hour at full chat. not sure how Ukranian logistics can supply that even daily. They are getting 12 guns apparently.

Erk wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Erk wrote:...It's not the paper cuts, what Ukraine are doing is gaining time for NATO to get more gear and troops trained in Poland and Germany to mobilize a large force against Russia....

As much as I would want them to somehow wish this large pinata stuffing into existence I still have to ask where the hell is this large force supposed to come from?

They are already scrapping the bottom of recruitment pool and Ukrainians procreate slower than Pandas

But if they can do it I'm all for it, more the merrier, better to dispose of the problems now than to allow them to metastasize later

How do you know Ukraine is scraping the bottom of the barrel?

Have you not considered that the better soldiers may be off in Poland and Germany being trained to come back with better equipment?

Also, a lot of what Ukraine has been doing in the Donbass is stalling for time, a prolonged battle, hence all the fortifications.

It remains to be seen if better trained and equipped Ukrainians are any more effective.

Even if they send in 80,000 crack troops, how are they gonna deploy with all the heavy weapons they need. Will they ride in with 500-1000 top of line MBTs 1000 IFVs? 100 attack helos and NATO clearing the skies of Russian planes? BTW what I describe is the MINIMUM required to make an impact on this war. The above may require Russia to deploy more troops and armour but will still not be an overwhelming force. The troops in Donbass are standing tough, the fact they have not broken and fled already is impressive. Maybe some tried and were executed. Who knows.

mnztr wrote:
Even if they send in 80,000 crack troops, how are they gonna deploy with all the heavy weapons they need. Will they ride in with 500-1000 top of line MBTs 1000 IFVs? 100 attack helos and NATO clearing the skies of Russian planes? BTW what I describe is the MINIMUM required  to make an impact on this war. The above may require Russia to deploy more troops and armour but will still not be an overwhelming force. The troops in Donbass are standing tough, the fact they have not broken and fled already is impressive. Maybe some tried and were executed. Who knows.

How did all the M777s and diesel supplies make it from Poland to Kharkov ?

I don't know the answer, but I know it happened. The M777s got blown up eventually but not before they caused trouble.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:
how naive! He will make sure the voters r in favor of joining the RF, if there is a referendum.

I can see that you're speaking from US experience like Hawaii or recently Maidan?  Nobody cares about US recognition anymore tho. Cheers

what matters is that the RF recognises them as L/DNR before annexation; favorable voting will be assured by those against Russia leaving the area/country while the rest may not even bother or will have nothing to loose. Russia may just say that the USSR was disbanded illegaly & as a legal inheritor she is taking parts of Ukraine back. The West won't recognize any of it anyway.

sepheronx wrote:

Isos wrote:

EU Set to Approve New Military Aid for Ukraine
Macron Tells Zelensky: French Arms Deliveries to Ukraine Will Intensify

He can't atm french army let alone ukrainian one to fight Russia. Another sign to give up for Ukraine.

I am unsure on this comment.  Is it that France has no ability to arm Ukraine due to lack of weapons for French Army or is it because of finances?

Both.
As France is still capable to construct and produce really formidable weapon systems, they can't do it at a reasonable cost.
And the French MIC is just the same corrupted and thirsty as any other, let it be the German one.
French AF faced the ammo shortage after about a week of air campaign against Libya, executed hand by hand with the Brits who faced just the same. Both needed to cry a river to Uncle Scum, to help them.
No country in Europe is prepared for even a small intensity operation. I mean war operation, not some exercises with locals running with AK and RPG.

Isos wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Isos wrote:

EU Set to Approve New Military Aid for Ukraine
Macron Tells Zelensky: French Arms Deliveries to Ukraine Will Intensify

He can't atm french army let alone ukrainian one to fight Russia. Another sign to give up for Ukraine.

I am unsure on this comment.  Is it that France has no ability to arm Ukraine due to lack of weapons for French Army or is it because of finances?

All. French soldiers generally buy their gear with their own money because what the army gives them is shitty.

The finances are very low also. The number of hardware available is really small. There are open source data and you can see they bought only small quantity of everything. Very low number of tanks, of missiles... pretty much everything is bought in very low numbers. So it's funny that Macron says he will give Ukraine weapons.

Forbe exemple Russia used 1000 cruise missiles the first week. French stock of Scalp is something like 350 for air force and 50 for the aircraft carrier.

Doesnt France have very large amounts of world class Eryx and HOT 3 ATGMs, as well as PARS3 F&F heavy ATGMs, which are equivalent, if not superior to the brimstone? The Eryx for example blows the metis M1 out of the water.

mnztr wrote:
PZH2000 can churn through about 30t of ammo/hour at full chat. not sure how Ukranian logistics can supply that even daily. They are getting 12 guns apparently.

Good. 2 will go to Russia for research purposes and the rest will be divided between the LDR and the DPR.

Pzh2k is the best ze wezt has, still it is miles behind the Russian new toys.
Modified MSTA already matches it in terms of rate of fire (10pm), but is longer ranged (80km).
Koalitsia is another league.