Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9

Would you want to fly a PAK-DA over Ukraine for routine bombing missions. There are no big enough target for PAK-DAs payload and it is risky for routine flights.

They fly Tu-95 and Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 aircraft to deliver cruise missile attacks and I would suspect the Tu-22M3 offers the best release performance for glide bombs in the 3 ton plus weight class from perhaps 12km altitude and potentially up to mach 2 speed... something the PAK DA wont be able to match.

This is not a thread for Su-34. The upgraded Su-34 is a big improvement yes but there are no deep strikes inside Ukraine using the airforce. Su-34 can be seen by radars and is using standoff munitions to engage targets.

As I said Su-57s could fly at altitude and provide overwatch for a strike package of Su-34s attacking targets. At altitude the Su-57 could fly rather faster than the low flying Su-34s and could hit radars and SAM and enemy aircraft as it appears while the Su-34s go in low and fast.

An aircraft capable of penetrating airspace and striking a well defended environment is needed for the SMO.

At the moment that is the Su-34, which can also use standoff weapons to hit targets.

Ironically probably the best strike aircraft for this conflict would probably be the MiG-31BM with ARMs and air to ground ordinance and of course long range AAMs.

The PAK-DA will primarily be a missile carrier. A hypersonic missile carrier at that with huge standoff range.

They have already said the PAK DA will replace the Bear and the Backfire and will be  a subsonic flying wing design.

For standoff glide weapon attack I would sat the PAK DP would be a better choice.

So, one of the official telegram channels about the Russian Ministry of Industry published data that 12 serial Su-57 aircraft were delivered in 2023, and a production plan from 20 to 24 aircraft was set for 2024.
Thus, on 01.01.2024, the troops had at least 20 combat-ready serial Su-57s.
...and by 01.01.2025, there will be from 40 to 44 of them.

william.boutros wrote:It is highly unlikely given the current priorities and changes in warfare.

That's all you got? Sheesh, I figured you would expand a little bit more there.
If a naval Su-57 is in the eventual plans, it's only obvious that it would be way down the road from now.  The concept is certainly appealing.

Speaking of Su-57, some retired US colonel who has some pretty impressive military credentials posted this "skewed" pic of the Su-57 cockpit on X.  Notice the convenient angle the pic was taken at and what it says at the bottom.



He posted this pic of the F-22 Raptor right next to it with the comment:

F-22 vs Su57 cockpit.  F-22 operational 2005
Su57 since 2020

Russia is DECADES behind, and getting worse.



Man, I was so pissed off I had to call him out on it.  Yeah we know most of the US' stuff is the best and I doubt many, if any would argue about the Raptor's greatness as an effective platform and ok, you can be proud and even rub it in a little here and there we're men our skin is thick we can take that crap no big deal.

..............................................................................................................,  

But don't be lying and adding to that lying by lying even more!  To show a pic of one of the wicked early prototypes' cockpit and not only that, but at a skewed angle that only shows certain parts of the cockpit mainly to highlight that box in front of the stick with the 5 toggle switches on it and then call them "Ping Pong" switches on top of it? What are we high school girls, here?

So I called him out on it.  Told him nice try on that deceiving pic and mentioned the above.  Then I said THIS is the production Su-57 cockpit.  Now compare, you neurotic horse's ass.  



The western propaganda is absolutely brutal, way past the ridiculous.  I mean, this is a retired colonel who served 7 tours in the US military and NATO and this is what he's resorting to?  I had to call him out it was like as if it was an automatic obligation but one I was more than happy to dish out.  My goodness gracious.

The comments were great, though.  One guy said "what matters on the battlefield is practicality, not appearance."  The truth couldn't be more accurate than that.

But this one I must say, was excellent and this fella brought the technicals with him with this great point!

In a war it is extremely useful to have switches you can toggle without looking. I hate a car computer that requires 3 clicks to change the fan speed - rather than turning a dial.

There's quite a bit of truth to that.  But this guy basically brought the house down!

Not only in war. It's also pretty much the reason why, say "professional" cameras have lots of buttons and dials on them – every essential and frequently used setting is immediately accessible instead of having to go through increasingly convoluted menus.

This is so true and I've been saying this ever since we started seeing the touchscreen craze rape the fighter jet cockpit thanks to the Swedes & the SAAB Grippen's screen, followed by the F-35's.  I was always an advocate of muscle memory working manual switches being faster and easier than navigating touch screens, especially when the screen touching sensor is operating like a smart phone and you have to swipe it a thousand times before it opens.

Even all the bullshit helmet screen crap seems way too much in the way of trying to make things simpler with advanced technology, but it turns out to be more difficult.  If the idea of having all systems displayed 1 inch away from your eyeballs, what's the sense of having such a miraculously advanced touchscreen display then?  Forget about the eye strain factor from having to focus on the screen, then 1 inch away from your eyeballs then back to the screen or even worst, out the canopy onto the jet next to you or the runway or a mountain.  That near sight focusing must be torture on the eyes.  

And if most functions are HOTAS anyway, then I would think you're much better off with a basic screen display showing all functions and switches & dials for additional functions to keep muscle memory sharp.  Hey, maybe that's just me.

Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting conversation spawned from a poor attempt at a propaganda bashing at the usual suspect, the Su-57.  And you wonder why they decided on their own to name it the Felon.  Bastards.

Missing posts on future Russian aircraft carriers moved here.

Even all the bullshit helmet screen crap seems way too much in the way of trying to make things simpler with advanced technology, but it turns out to be more difficult. If the idea of having all systems displayed 1 inch away from your eyeballs, what's the sense of having such a miraculously advanced touchscreen display then? Forget about the eye strain factor from having to focus on the screen, then 1 inch away from your eyeballs then back to the screen or even worst, out the canopy onto the jet next to you or the runway or a mountain. That near sight focusing must be torture on the eyes.

Helmet mounted displays are set to focus further away so you are not looking at things 2.5cm away from your eyes... you look through the display at the world around you and the information and images hover in front of your eyes.

There is a similar system for their tanks and helicopters that are based on video cameras (visible light and IIR) whose video footage is stitched together so sitting inside the vehicle you see the view from the external cameras with cockpit and display information overlay.

Some flight simulators allowed you to make the cockpit disappear and had the HUD displayed in your view... that is essentially what these new VR systems do.

Using simple switches makes things easier and you can check at a glance... you will notice those switches are behind the main control stick so they are not likely to be needed or used in flight, they are more likely for on the ground, starting up or shutting down.

Having lots of MFD just creates a situation of information overload... how often is the pilot going to make use of all those MFDs in the F-22?

It is rather better to consolodate information for each purpose into a single screen... you will notice in the original image of the Su-57 cockpit the aircraft level and flight angle instrument is mounted on the cockpit top right and repeated in the MFD display... in actual flight the pilot wont need such repetition of information and might have a display showing other information... perhaps from the IRST and radar combined, together with data from other platforms showing threats and targets around the aircraft.

@Gomig-21

Very nice post! The cars I own are vast generations apart and some features in modern cars are quite convenient BUT it is ALWAYS good to know you have a manual backup feature (very rare these days!) that can keep you going once the electronic shit hits the fan!

The cockpit stuff is complete bullshit.
First and foremost the picture on the Su-57 is taken out of context with a bad angle, here is the cockpit of a su-35 instead:
Looks better than the F-22's already.
Also that was the cockpit of the su-57's prototype. The production one has one big screen with a resollution of 3000x2500 pixels like LTS, and that is *way* better than the F22.


And speaking of avionics, are we even considering the fact that the avionics suite of the Su-57 as a whole is like a gazillion times better and more progressive than what's on the F-22? Are we mentionning the hundereds of times data bus and processors speed for sensor fusion?

The Su-57's soft is actually actively supported right now. Can't say the same for the F-22 for what, 15 years now?

Gomig-21 wrote:
F-22 vs Su57 cockpit.  F-22 operational 2005
Su57 since 2020

Russia is DECADES behind, and getting worse.



The western propaganda is absolutely brutal, way past the ridiculous.  I mean, this is a retired colonel who served 7 tours in the US military and NATO and this is what he's resorting to?  I had to call him out it was like as if it was an automatic obligation but one I was more than happy to dish out.  My goodness gracious.

To be honest, F-22 looks decades behind the times... which is an objective reality

That's because it is decades behind the Su-57

Some interesting Chinese claims with regard to the tracking of stealth aircraft via satellite, that could possibly negate stealth advantages in future?

Chinese commercial aerospace company Chang Guang recently released a very short video clip showing a satellite tracking an American F-22 Raptor fighter jet. The footage was taken in 2020, and the tracking was allegedly conducted using the commercial satellite remote control system Jilin-1.

https://overclockers.ru/blog/LYMAN/show/162776/Kitaj-prodemonstriroval-otslezhivanie-poleta-F-22-cherez-sputnik

Another interesting development late in 2023 was that a modest Filipino FA-50 light fighter apparently "killed" a F-22 Raptor during a simulated aerial combat exercise "Cope Thunder 23". Which perhaps says something about the F-22's lack of "situational awareness" abilities?

Style over substance is the essence of western "advanced technology". It is a con artist approach, sell them crap on looks and make a load of money. Market reductionists
think that this profit grubbing magically produces the most advanced products. No, it produces trash.

https://twentytwo13.my/news/malaysia-likely-to-get-russian-stealth-fighters-under-14th-malaysia-plan/

Malaysia wants su57E , what does that mean for su75?

The entire concept of the Su-75 and the MiG-35 is not that they replace the heavy fighter... Su-57 and Su-35 respectively in this case.

If Malaysia eventually buys... say 18 or 24 Su-57s then it would make sense for them to also buy 36 or 48 Su-75s as well to give them numbers as well as high technology.

GarryB wrote:The entire concept of the Su-75 and the MiG-35 is not that they replace the heavy fighter... Su-57 and Su-35 respectively in this case.

If Malaysia eventually buys... say 18 or 24 Su-57s then it would make sense for them to also buy 36 or 48 Su-75s as well to give them numbers as well as high technology.

You know full well if they buy su57E , that there’s no money for 48 su75 lol

That’s the end of su75

@ Archie

You do realize what you're saying right?

Complete the sentence. No Malaysian money for the Su-75 would also mean no Malaysian money for the ******

Wishing the death of the Su-75 program may just blow up in your face - trust me!

Su-75 is actually a very important program. If it can be cheap enough, they can mas produce. Have a larger fleet of higher end AD jets.

@Mir... settle petal...

If they reach, or even come close to their goals of unit price and operational price and performance then they are going to sell them in enormous numbers around the world.

In fact I would be surprised if Brazil and South Africa did not buy them in significant numbers.

There is no value in having a tiny number of aircraft no matter how potent they are.

The purpose of the light fighter is to be cheap enough to actually operate and have in service in large numbers flying around the place getting the job done.

Sometimes there will be a serious threat that might need something more... but sometimes that just means sending 12 Su-75s instead of four to a situation... other times it might need an Su-57 or four, but even then 8-12 Su-75s there as well will actually make things better rather than worse.

You know full well if they buy su57E , that there’s no money for 48 su75 lol

That’s the end of su75

That is not how it is supposed to work... if they can't afford Su-75s then they probably can afford Su-57s even less because operational costs will be higher.

If you think about the job of an air force there are lots of jobs that don't require an Su-57, and even an Su-30 could do the job.

What I suspect would happen is that they will have Su-57s as their best fighter and keep the Su-30s as their numbers fighter, but the heavy Su-30 was never intended as a numbers fighter and operational costs will mean they will get to a point where they want a cheaper lighter fighter that perhaps is also stealthy to a degree but does not need the range and payload of a heavy fighter because they have Su-57s.

This means they could replace their 18 Su-30s that by this time will have had lots of upgrades, with maybe 24 Su-75s.

It would mean keeping commonality with the new heavy fighter. Operational costs will be lower because that will be its design focus... and most of the time they wont even be stealthy because they will have external weapon hard points and be bomb and missile trucks essentially... but affordable.

If they can get it into serial production they are likely going to end up making thousands... countries like Iran might make their own customised version and I could see India wanting to make their own version too with Indian avionics as well.

I suspect China would be interested in a look but they probably just want an insight into production technology involved and might not want to buy enough to justify handing over that level of technology.

The Su-75 is what the F-35 can only dream of. But as usual we have worship and supplication before the F-35 and sneering derision aimed at
the Su-75.

Arkanghelsk wrote:https://twentytwo13.my/news/malaysia-likely-to-get-russian-stealth-fighters-under-14th-malaysia-plan/

Malaysia wants su57E , what does that mean for su75?

Nothing

It's Russian aircraft not Malaysian

India didn't want Su-57 and it didn't mean shit for Su-57

PapaDragon wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:https://twentytwo13.my/news/malaysia-likely-to-get-russian-stealth-fighters-under-14th-malaysia-plan/

Malaysia wants su57E , what does that mean for su75?

Nothing

It's Russian aircraft not Malaysian

India didn't want Su-57 and it didn't mean shit for Su-57

Lmao let's be honest here, india wanted the fgfa for the price of a yugo 55 as well as tech transfer as well. So the russians gave them the middle finger and they ended up parting ways.

India *wishes* it had something like the su57

The Su-75 is what the F-35 can only dream of.

The Su-75 is everything the F-35 was supposed to be... single engined, lighter than the F-22, much cheaper to buy and to operate... able to carry modern sensors and modern weapons in internal bays when stealth is critical and externally when it isn't.

The F-35 fails most of those requirements... the Su-75 isn't made yet, but I have confidence it will do what they claim it will do.

Arkanghelsk wrote:https://twentytwo13.my/news/malaysia-likely-to-get-russian-stealth-fighters-under-14th-malaysia-plan/

Malaysia wants su57E , what does that mean for su75?

In the Su-57’s design, Sukhoi cited the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor as the baseline for a supermanoeuvrable stealth fighter

What kind of idiot wrote this article?

Another Su-35S and Su-57 assembly

GarryB wrote:

The Su-75 is what the F-35 can only dream of.

The Su-75 is everything the F-35 was supposed to be... single engined, lighter than the F-22, much cheaper to buy and to operate... able to carry modern sensors and modern weapons in internal bays when stealth is critical and externally when it isn't.

The F-35 fails most of those requirements... the Su-75 isn't made yet, but I have confidence it will do what they claim it will do.

If the russian MoD wanted to fk up the Su-75 the way the USGov wrecked the Fail-35 then they only need to demand that Sukhoi build a VSTOL variant for naval use....  

Seriously, how frigging demented does someone need to be to hamstring their 5G fighter program by introducing what are near-incompatible design requirements and guaranteeing that the resulting kludge is an underperforming POS?  

In the Su-57’s design, Sukhoi cited the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor as the baseline for a supermanoeuvrable stealth fighter

Hahaha... thanks for pointing this out Scorpious... the F-22 was all about stealth and manouverability was going to come from thrust vectoring engines.

The Su-57 is designed to be manouverable even when the thrust vectoring engines fail to vector.

The Malaysian Air Force will likely buy 8 to 12 Su-57s and buy Su-75s at a ratio normally of about 2-3 to one, so 16-36 Su-75s as the cheaper numbers planes.

If we do the maths... it will probably cost 80 million a pop for the Su-57s, so lets make the numbers hard... say 12 Su-57s and 36 Su-75s, with the Su-75s costing perhaps 30 million each, so the total bill for this fleet of 48 aircraft will be totally affordable... 960 million for the Su-57s... which is less than a billion dollars, and 1 billion 80 million dollars for the Su-75s. Both together that is 2 billion 40 million dollars for 48 aircraft.

Even if you made the Su-57 100 million an airframe that is 1.2 billion for a heavy 5th gen fighter, and 1.08 billion for the Su-75.

2.28 billion and the operational costs for the 36 Su-75s will be a quarter what the operational costs the Su-57s will cost, but that doesn't really matter much... most of the flying will be done by the smaller lighter aircraft.

And wont exercises with Australia with their F-35s be lots of fun... bloatware is expensive...

Early PAK FA proposal or something?