Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9

Our arrow nosed friend above have a tendency to exaggerate NATzo's capabilities ever so slightly!

All those EU fighters are pretty capable, but the real issue with non-operational stuff is the defense budget cuts and mismanagement in the 90's that slashed deep into the bone all across the EU and the UK.

Arrow wrote:

This was more of a response to GarryB that there has never been a European fighter. When they built about 600 EFs and the Rafale on top of that.

And Gripen, didn't forget Gripen and the same Mirage 2000 that's still in service in consistent numbers.

And about all of them were built in this century and for what it came to Rafale ang Gripen they are still in production.
Would have to compare them to the F-16 that's are actually in service in the same USAF?





Here they are: last one was introduced in 2000 but practically after 1992 they were purchased only in boutique numbers to replace lost ones.
So that there are only 309 Combat Capable ones in the Active Forces of USAF, rest is in ANG or Reserve, so actually semi-retired.

Yeah there are some amazing european fighter and trainer designs. The eurocanards are all pretty awesome. Never liked them much. Reminds me oddly of the strange european affinity for bullpup rifles in the late 20th century.

How many su57 and su35 got delivered today ?

So they said 12 was delivered in 2023 and this year production would double

Meaning either they delivered more su57 without announcing earlier this year

Or they are trying to get AL51 on that new batch

Maybe just build the basic versions with the interim engines, and then just have the existing Su-57s refitted with the new engines when it becomes available, (if the process is not costly)

There were rumors of izd30 equipped fighters by the end of this year. Primarily what I have heard though is 2025. Can anyone confirm or deny fhis?

TMA1 wrote:There were rumors of izd30 equipped fighters by the end of this year. Primarily what I have heard though is 2025. Can anyone confirm or deny fhis?

These aircraft still use the AL-41. As for if aircraft with the AL-51 will come out this year or not your guess is as good as mine.

This does not change the fact that Europe has about 700 EF and Rafale in total. Not enough? Of course, it is known that some of the EF are not airworthy.

The point I was trying to make was that Europe is not monolithic and while they bully and punish any member that does not follow, they also couldn't make a tank or an aircraft or submarine or aircraft carrier or ship that they would all be happy with so there is no European fighter... there are European fighters, but not fighters all Europeans use or would choose...

600, not 700.
Of which 15 have crashed.
680 is a total number to be delivered by 2035.
Of which half is nonoperational.
Or 3/4 of them, if we apply German statistics to the whole of users.

Plus all the first generation EFs will cost more to upgrade to current standard than it would cost to make new ones so they are scrapping the 10-15 year old first aircraft to replace them with newly made aircraft.

They care so much for the planet...

This was more of a response to GarryB that there has never been a European fighter. When they built about 600 EFs and the Rafale on top of that.

The closest Europe ever got to a European fighter... ie a fighter used by all of Europe was in the mid 1940s and that plane would be the BF-109.

Or they are trying to get AL51 on that new batch

I don't think they think that is as urgent as so many fan boys on the interweb seem to.

Maybe just build the basic versions with the interim engines, and then just have the existing Su-57s refitted with the new engines when it becomes available, (if the process is not costly)

Producing them without the new engines and other upgrades that they are still working on will speed up production and then once the upgrades and new engines are ready they can be installed at their next overhaul.

GarryB wrote:

The closest Europe ever got to a European fighter... ie a fighter used by all of Europe was in the mid 1940s and that plane would be the BF-109.  

It still does not changes the fact, that EF is an extremely potent platform.
Combined with the Meteor, it is probably one of the best airplanes in the world today.

Arrow wrote:There are also about 600 of them. Of course, a large part is not capable of combat flights, but they can be restored at a lower cost than building a new fleet of aircraft. There are currently only 20 Su-57s and about 130 Su-35S. There are also over 150 Rafales, which are just as good. So GarryB, I would not belittle the potential of the European air forces so much. Now, of course, Europe will buy hundreds more F-35 weak aircraft, but there will be a lot of them.

The Rafale is worse than the Su-57. And its performance against even the Su-35 would be questionable. Particularly the initial version with PESA radar.

The "Euro fighters" like the Rafale, the Typhoon and the Gripen E came into the game quite a bit later than the US 4th gen fighters so they could be considered 4+ generation.

These are pretty much at the same level as the Su-30's but without the TVC advantage of the later Su-30's. The 4++ Su-35 and Su-30SM2's are somewhat more advanced but the Su-57 is from a completely different generation and class.

The Su - 57 was never a stealth aircraft. Today they proved it by adding a huge bulging IRST.

Yeah the huge bulge is a dead giveaway. No need for stealth when you have so much testosterone on display

The F-22 and F-35 are less stealth than the F-117. And that still got shot down by like 1960s Soviet era tech.

It still does not changes the fact, that EF is an extremely potent platform.
Combined with the Meteor, it is probably one of the best airplanes in the world today.

I seem to remember claims that all Russian stuff is shit because it has never been tested in combat, and western stuff is amazing because they are in combat all the time.

Looking at how their artillery and super uber weapons have been performing in the Ukraine it seems their tanks and BMPs and other equipment is not really designed to fight the Soviets let alone the Russians.

The Eurofighter might be a nice aircraft but how will it go flying through airspace protected by Russian air defence systems... whether they are working together in a network on independently as separate entities?

Is Meteor any better than R-37 which can be used by any 4+ or 5th gen Russian fighter in service or due to arrive in the next few years?

It is hard to say because the marketing department thinks they are all amazing... but then wasn't the Gripen also supposed to be cheap to operate?

HATO handed over some of their best tanks in the hopes they would break through Russian lines and take Kievs forces to Crimea and the Black Sea, but they don't seem so willing to provide these Euro super jets... what is it they are afraid of?

Remember Russia sold to Turkey S-400 missiles with no restrictions regarding interaction with F-16s and F-35s, but when Turkey received S-400s the US refused to allow F-35s to be used anywhere near them. What was the US afraid of? Israeli F-35s don't avoid Russian S-400s in Syria so that can't be the problem... maybe they fear Turkey finding out their fighters are not as good as they pretend... perhaps that is why Kiev is getting ancient F-16s drip fed to them... it has already been reported on this forum that the first tranche Eurofighters will be scrapped rather than upgraded because it is cheaper to scrap them than to upgrade them... the upgrade costing more than producing them brand new from scratch... surely those first gen fighters could have been handed to Kiev like all the other stuff they sent that was going to be scrapped... it would have saved them the scrapping fees.

There are also about 600 of them. Of course, a large part is not capable of combat flights, but they can be restored at a lower cost than building a new fleet of aircraft.

From the sound of it that is not true... upgrades cost more than brand new aircraft... so scrapping them might be the cheapest and most cost effective option...

There are currently only 20 Su-57s and about 130 Su-35S. There are also over 150 Rafales, which are just as good.

And the entire airspace of Europe to defend and all those thousands of S-300s and S-350s and S-400s to evade... not to mention those nuclear armed hypersonic missiles aimed at those air bases...

So GarryB, I would not belittle the potential of the European air forces so much.

30 years ago I would not either, but they have expected the US to fund their defence and it wasn't just cheap Russian energy allowing them to live the good life... it was also cutting back on military programmes and expenditure and training. The military of the EU is probably in a worse state than the Russian military was in 2008 when it was tested by Georgia and the west... Putin and Medvedev responded and started a lot of programmes and spending to fix the issues... what is Europe doing?

Where is European heavy industry headed?

Now, of course, Europe will buy hundreds more F-35 weak aircraft, but there will be a lot of them.

The more F-35s they buy the better in my opinion... those money pits will drain the resources of Europe faster than anything Russia is likely to do to create conflict with the west.

The west is smacking itself in the face saying why are you hitting yourself. The EU gets angry with Russia and China but the hand making the EU slap itself is being controlled by the US... and you continue to blame Putin for that... what is your future when you are so stupid... you can't solve your problems when you don't even care what they really are.

These are pretty much at the same level as the Su-30's but without the TVC advantage of the later Su-30's.

Plus the advantage of the Su-30 that it is a big aircraft and can carry a lot of fuel internally without using up external weapon pylons for longer range flights if needed... and there is space for a big radar there too.

The Su - 57 was never a stealth aircraft. Today they proved it by adding a huge bulging IRST.

Thanks for the expert assessment, but I would ask if the tiny IRST sensor ruins the stealth performance of the aircraft... wouldn't the much bigger cockpit canopy right next to it that is maybe 20 times bigger also ruin the stealth... and western stealth aircraft have cockpit canopies too don't they... so nothing can be stealth by that logic...

Equally that IRST will enable the pilot of that aircraft and the weapon systems on board to detect targets that are stealthy and have small RCS at quite long ranges without emitting any energy at all... a stealthy way to detect and track western stealth fighters and stealth bombers and stealthy missiles too... with a system that is passive and does not give away your position.

GarryB wrote:
I seem to remember claims that all Russian stuff is shit because it has never been tested in combat, and western stuff is amazing because they are in combat all the time.

It has always been a dumb argument in use by dumb fanboys who had the regular issue of finding their own arses using one hand.
The ongoing war proved how clueless dispute it has always been, and - sadly - how the Soviet era gear is a much more robust and solid tool of war.

You should have a one on one conversation with David Axe. David Axe writes about ships, planes, tanks, drones and missiles. He knows everything. He is an expert.

David Axe is a fcking retarded Atlantacist moron. He couldn't find his arse with both hands in a brightly lit room

Funny,but keep in mind that he is one of a legion who creates a "common knowledge".