Russian special military operation in Ukraine #57

Belisarius wrote:

Are the Russian economy's manufacturing capabilities bigger than the Western ones? False.

Gunship simply posted something real stupid, that is for sure.

No, actually russias industrial capacity for military is indeed larger than the west's. This is proven already as mentioned about production and costs.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky gave a recent interview to a Russian journalist where he directly stated that he passed the controlling stake in Yukos to none other than Lord Jacob Rothschild before Putin effectively nationalized Yukos. Not only that, he described a long standing relationship with Rothschild who he described as his "protection" - a relationship formed through Soros's NGO in the 1980s. Want to guess how many other oligarchs had a similar relationship with the most powerful banking family in the world?  The vitriol in the Western press against Putin and Russia is more than personal - it is about dollars and cents. Those City of London front men stripped Russia (and Ukraine by the way) bare in rigged auctions...something that Putin at least partially reversed not just via nationalization of Yukos but by ending tax evasion via transfer pricing of commodities at ridiculously low prices in Cyprus and other offshore locations that had dual tax treaties signed off on by Yeltsin. That is at the root of the desire to "democratize Russia" via economic isolation and by finding a proxy nation of 30 million indoctrinated fools to fight and die for the cause. Success for the real power brokers will not be measured by "free and fair" elections in Russia - it will be measured by the returns of the likes of Khodorkovsky to ownership and control of Russian strategic assets.

calripson wrote:Mikhail Khodorkovsky gave a recent interview to a Russian journalist where he directly stated that he passed the controlling stake in Yukos to none other than Lord Jacob Rothschild before Putin effectively nationalized Yukos. Not only that, he described a long standing relationship with Rothschild who he described as his "protection" - a relationship formed through Soros's NGO in the 1980s. Want to guess how many other oligarchs had a similar relationship with the most powerful banking family in the world?  The vitriol in the Western press against Putin and Russia is more than personal - it is about dollars and cents. Those City of London front men stripped Russia (and Ukraine by the way) bare in rigged auctions...something that Putin at least partially reversed not just via nationalization of Yukos but by ending tax evasion via transfer pricing of commodities at ridiculously low prices in Cyprus and other offshore locations that had dual tax treaties signed off on by Yeltsin. That is at the root of the desire to "democratize Russia" via economic isolation and by finding a proxy nation of 30 million indoctrinated fools to fight and die for the cause. Success for the real power brokers will not be measured by "free and fair" elections in Russia - it will be measured by the returns of the likes of Khodorkovsky to ownership and control of Russian strategic assets.

Democratize is but half the insidious plan, the other half is occassionally said allowed but whispered. As The Atlantic said a few months ago, the plan is to "decolonize" Russia. They want to break Russia up into fiefdoms. In the 90s they would have been okay with Russian oligarchs screwing over their own people, but alas that left the door open for people like Putin to come in and arrest their pets and end the fire sale. For those who say Putin is a western plant, that flies in the face of so much of what Putin has done and what the west says and does against him. In the 90s, the government was not getting paid. Corruption was so rampant that business could not get done. Government was almost nonfunctional and bureaucrats weren't getting paid. I remember reading Pravda online in the late 90s and the army was not getting paid and in Siberia they had to forage off the land and hunt. The life expectancy of men in Russia collapsed into the 50s, there was a brain drain of young Russian men out of the country to be defacto slave labor in Europe and the Americas. Young Russian women were being sex trafficked, and Russia teetered on the abyss. Sure, the west didn't like that south American drug cartels almost succeeded in buying Russian nuclear submarines for the purpose of running drugs into the US and Europe, and sure they didn't like terrorist groups that they no longer found useful almost got their hands on fisable nuclear weapons material but man did they like what they so nearly had in their grasp, untold and unchecked access to a literal world of raw materials from cheap lumber and iron to precious gems and minerals, to petroleum, natural gas, coal and all the things that could make them a lot of money. As long as the oligarchs in Russia cooperated with the Oligarchs in Europe, and the Russian armed forces were not being paid and they could impose their will on Europe and Central Asia, they didn't care about the average Russian.

Things were great for the Americans and Europeans in the 90s, and then came Vladimir Putin. He started arresting, executing, and exiling the oligarchs. He stopped the fire sale. He started paying the army and navy and government sector again, he reeled in the corruption, Russian life expectancy shot back up into the mid seventies, women started having families again. Has Putin been perfect? No, no such thing as a perfect leader. However, future historians will record honestly that he is the man who saved Russia from the abyss.

Sorry for the tangent, but the point was that in the 90s they entrusted Russia to west friendly oligarchs who would whore out the country to make a buck. Putin got in the way of that. So now they want to do something even more terrible. They want to carve Russia up into western controlled fiefdoms so they can more efficiently rape, pillage, and plunder the Russian people and the Russian land. Oligarchs? Maybe, but not in a single Russian state.

Basic automobile production isn't the same. Their tractor production is the question.

Civil aeroplanes, yet look at what's happening with Boeing.

With the amount of facilities Russia has, if they were to streamline production and get the same orders, then yes, they could.  But they don't so there is no need for it.

Once again, all one has to do is look at the basic production rate.

Add to that, German industry is closing so good luck with the numbers.  US would be really only true opposition to production soon.

During Soviet times, Russia was outproducing the west. It was then the meme that the west produced less but "quality".  That isn't the case anymore and a lot of Russian production was done at minimal of what the actual facility could do.  Mercorous actually explained this well and he has not only experience of this, but has closer ties to those who do.

West makes 50mln cars yr ? mostly automated assembly lines and Russia 1,4 mln? Boeing + Airbus 2023 500+ and 700+ civilian aircraft. Russia is planning to make 1000+ civilian aircraft till 2030.  Still claiming Russia can do more cars and air liners?

Who would Russia make 50m cars for? Toddlers and wildlife? You mistake the inability to do something with having the market for it. Guaranteed that Russia could make as many aircraft per year if there was a demand for it, alas, there isn't.

If we are talking about not manufacturing capabilities but military output at the moment, then yes, Russia is ahead. Western capabilities regarding industrial potential are another matter.

Industrial potential comes down to 3 important factors.

• Abundant Natural Resources
  

• Affordable Energy
  

• Trained, Competent Workforce
  

Does that sound familiar?
The EU used to get much of the first two from Russia, now they're going through a recession because they've cut themselves off from Russian energy and commodities via sanctions, Germany is deindustrializing as we speak and losing their large companies and factories to China and the US.

The US, whom long ago shipped their manufacturing base to China, have an increasingly useless workforce comprised of DEI hires in positions they're literally not qualified for. Essentially marginalizing the very people that enabled the US to grow so powerful in the first place (Straight, White, Christian Men).

Both the US & EU are heavily indebted to their creditors, both rely on financial voodoo to appear much wealthier than they actually are. Printing more money won't allow them to produce more weapons than Russia does because they lack at least one of those three things listed, switching to a wartime economy would take years and significantly lower the living standards of Europeans and Americans alike.

Are the people of these countries willing to live like working class Africans just to "Stick it to Putin"?

Russia is producing artillery shells around three times faster than Ukraine's Western allies and for about a quarter of the cost

It also does not take into account that not all western artillery shells make it to the front line to be fired from a gun. Sometimes they get destroyed in rail cars and ports when they arrive or while they are being transported to the front and stored in various warehouses in different places waiting for suitable transport to get them to the front line.

Internet experts ask questions and see a need for improvements. Errors must be identified and corrected. Putin says exactly the words, and the middle and deputy decision-makers in the chain of command say exactly the words.

First if all most of these internet experts you talk about are not experts and just repeat Orc propaganda verbatim hoping a real internet expert will correct them and make them feel better about the loss.

When the Ukraine attacks an airfield and their massive victory is hitting a S-400 radar vehicle, and in response Russia attacks a Ukrainian airfield with an enormous number of weapons and drones and they all hit important targets on that airfield you have to say there is nothing fundamentally wrong on the Russian side.

Of course what happened can be examined and lessons can be learned but when poofters jump up and down like 10 year olds demanding someone get fired... well such noise is clearly worth being ignored.

Ballistic targets follow steep trajectories... the effective range of a SAM against ballistic threats is almost never more than about 30km just because of the trajectory of the incoming threat, and normally most SAMs don't waste their time looking up for incoming threats because they are rather rare and would mean it would be vulnerable to the vast majority of other threats that don't fly such flight profiles.

When an enemy mounts a concerted attack using weapons they do not have a lot of and they use them up and get a radar vehicle and maybe a few TELs then that is actually a victory for the defender... it is like the west firing 200 TOW missiles at a T-14 and breaking a track.

It is important to eliminate the errors. If this doesn't happen, there will be consequences. Mistakes that you can't afford to make often.

HATO are using state of the art sensors and equipment and planning to find weak spots and gaps in defences... the fact that they find something once every month or two and never do very serious damage suggests HATO are fucking useless and Russia is in a very good position moving forward.

Russia is a giant holding Ukraine by the throat with its feet off the ground, and HATO is saying kick him in the knee... and every time his flailing foot makes contact with the giants knee the giant squeezes tighter and HATO slips a dollar in the Ukraines pocket.

The net effect is Ukraine gets slightly heavier but there is no change to the outcome...

2. S-400, no TOR. No, TOR probably wouldn't have prevented the splinterhead attack. But the drone that illuminated the target, which also took the video, was able to take pictures and illuminate the target at its leisure.

What are you talking about illuminating target... ATACMS with a cluster warhead does not use SALH guidance.

If you don't want a forum to be used to exchange opinions, you are just as monkeys, fascist monkeys as those in the West, Ukraine & Co. Then there is no need for the forum.

If you think idiots repeating western propaganda improves the website then you really don't understand what I am about or what this website is for.

Both Targets were destroyed because the simplest homework was not done.

You have heard the western story about what happened and you are certain it is all true.

Understand that I don't give a **** what Rooters or Bellingcat or other western propaganda outlets say, I would rather wait a couple of days and hear what the Russians have to say about it.

The fact that you think all they have to do is their homework and all HATO weapons will be rendered useless and Russia will stop taking any loses at all suggests you have a video game understanding of war.

War is about tactics and no matter what precautions you take the enemy will probe your defences and find gaps and attack those gaps.

Most of the time it has been civilian targets because they are not as well defended, so or course people like you will demand they shift their defence to protect all the civilians... well guess what... when you take air defence systems protecting your military and use them to defend civilians then your military is not so well defended... and attacks that might have been stopped before might leak through a few warheads... which is what we are talking about... a few leakers.

Winning and learning to means avoiding mistakes, protecting systems, and changing positions.

Changing positions leaves gaps in your air defence that HATO can exploit to hit targets instead of air defence units... they would rather hit targets because Russia has more air defence units than the entire west has missiles.

Belbeg exactly, you don't park it in the middle of the runway out of laziness but in a camouflaged position. This is not a kindergarten in Siberia, but a front. Naming mistakes doesn't mean being a NATO troll. It means protecting lives and preserving equipment.

Would not take anything said about the situation seriously till we hear the Russian side.

Losing equipment is part of war... new stuff can be made easily enough...

Go to the airfield and tell them they are lazy... just dare you... and explain how your tax dollars are murdering their people and you don't do anything except whine on the internet about it like it is going to fix itself.

Western democracy is a joke because nobody objects when your governments prove to be evil.

No independent media to keep them in check... they just do as they please.

Finally learn it!

If only they were as smart as you and knew how to fight a war they would not be in such a terrible situation that they appear to be in now... they are clearly morons...

Not in the real world.
Fantasy GDP numbers based on money printing and debt don´t count.

Exactly... western GDPs are skewed by financial components, rather than production and industry contributions that dominate Russian GDP...

For years we heared how horrible russias production efficiency was and how much better manufacturing was in the west, especially Germany. My, how the tides have turned. In the end, turns out Russia is very efficient at making weapons and various other goods. So much to the point it has outdone the west by various magnitudes.

I love the claims of productivity advantages... but you can increase productivity easily by firing half your workforce and make the remaining workers do the jobs of the fired people as well as their own... productivity is doubled... quality goes down and burnouts and stress become issues... but productivity is increased...

Can Russia win? True, because de West cannot focus as much procuctionpower in one direction and Russia has China behind their back too.

Can the West win... they could have won 35 years ago... all they had to do was stop being a white colonial predatory power and treat Russia and China with some respect as equals, but it can't because it is evil. There is no chance of a win for the west... it is just a question of how many men the Ukraine has left before their military collapses.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky gave a recent interview...

See... it really is all about good vs evil... and Putin carries a cross and garlic and some wooden stakes...

West makes 50mln cars yr ? mostly automated assembly lines and Russia 1,4 mln?

And imposing tarrifs on China to stop them from destroying sales in their own markets for cars because Chinese cars are better and cheaper by a significant margin.

Most of those western cars use components made in China too like batteries and electric motors etc.

Boeing + Airbus 2023 500+ and 700+ civilian aircraft. Russia is planning to make 1000+ civilian aircraft till 2030. Still claiming Russia can do more cars and air liners?

Irrelevant in the context of this conflict. Cars and airliners don't make any difference at all... artillery shells kill soldiers and killing soldiers is why Russia is dominating.

If we are talking about not manufacturing capabilities but military output at the moment, then yes, Russia is ahead. Western capabilities regarding industrial potential are another matter.

Industrial potential is meaningless... Russia is making the weapons and ammo it needs... it is meeting demand on both battlefields (Syria and Ukraine) and is probably refilling stocks and storage sites with new ammo to replace the old ammo and material being consumed in these conflicts.

Add to that, German industry is closing so good luck with the numbers. US would be really only true opposition to production soon.

Even when German industry has moved to the US they have bases around the world that all require ammo and weapons whose stores have been stripped that need to be replaced let alone weapons and ammo for a potential war which as has been clearly shown was massively under rated... they seem to think they would fight for a couple of weeks and that is all they needed, so a three year war with Russia on top of 20 years of low rate fighting in Afghanistan has blown their reserves... but they still want to fight China...

Abundant Natural Resources

One of the reasons the west can't just ramp up production like Russia did is they lack a lot of the essential resources needed to make weapons and ammo... and there is no quick and easy way for them to source such material on the current international markets...

Ukraine & NATO struck another over-the-horizon nuclear warning radar in Orenburg, 1,500km from the border with Ukraine. The predictable pattern of escalation continues.

https://x.com/warintel4u/status/1794778318580982213

zorobabel wrote:Ukraine & NATO struck another over-the-horizon nuclear warning radar in Orenburg, 1,500km from the border with Ukraine. The predictable pattern of escalation continues.

https://x.com/warintel4u/status/1794778318580982213

before we lose our minds over this, can we independently verify that this actually happened?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
West makes 50mln cars yr ? mostly automated assembly lines and Russia 1,4 mln? Boeing + Airbus 2023 500+ and 700+ civilian aircraft. Russia is planning to make 1000+ civilian aircraft till 2030.  Still claiming Russia can do more cars and air liners?

I guess you should revise your numbers.
The US and Europe combined hit 20 mln cars a year.
And are outnumbered by the Chinese by a solid margin.
At a pre-war peak, Russkie used to make 2 mln a year, with more than half of that being "European".
As soon as the factories will restart with domestic brands and Chinese supply - they will be back to those numbers.
The situation looks slightly different if we gain a perspective, as it turned out that Russkie will make a 1/5 of the EU production, being ... 1/5 of the nominal economy size and 1/4 of the population.
And keep in mind that cars are only one case, and a de facto mainstay of the EU economy.
This is not the case for Russia.
How many nuclear reactors EU and US made in the last decade, remind me.

ucmvulcan wrote:

zorobabel wrote:Ukraine & NATO struck another over-the-horizon nuclear warning radar in Orenburg, 1,500km from the border with Ukraine. The predictable pattern of escalation continues.

https://x.com/warintel4u/status/1794778318580982213

before we lose our minds over this, can we independently verify that this actually happened?

I sincerely hope this is not true. This can open a gate that will have devastating consequences.

They are wasting resources they lack, to stage attacks on infrastructure that is irrelevant to the conflict.
Just medial.
It is a desperation.

If true it can set the stage for a much bigger and very sinister plan.

Scorpius wrote:
1. The so-called "attack" is mainly reported by the Ukrainian media, referring to reports from the Russian media (without citing the original source), while those messages allegedly say something like "a drone fell several dozen kilometers from the object."
2. The average UAV is not able to damage objects of this type. Any such damage can be repaired in a few hours/days.
3. The Ukrainian followers of Goebbels are desperately trying to shift the focus of attention from military defeats at the front to some "victories" over Russia.

Seriously, do you think that attacks on the missile warning system will somehow weaken Russia? As long as the Perimeter system, better known in the West as the "Dead Hand", exists, a retaliatory strike against any aggressor will be guaranteed - even if both the ground and space segments of the missile attack warning system are completely disabled.

If the Russians have their space based system in place then I'm not worried, but I am unsure if they have?

If not, this could give the west a first strike (directional) advantage from say the Mediterranean with very little reaction time for the Russians.

A first strike advantage could give the west the window to attack - they are crazy enough as it is.

Loony uncle Joe Biden just stated that the US is the only super power and Blinken gave the Nazis the green light to attack targets deep inside Russia.

Btw - the few hours/days to repair these radars is more than enough time for the enemy to strike.  

But yes there is the "Dead Hand" as you say and the Nazis are desperate for some token victories.

The sole reason ukrs are doing this shit, is being desperate.
Continuously trying to push the limit, causing Russkie to overreact somehow.
Later on, that would be the core of medial campaign.
Pay attention to the fact, that every time a single shell, a drone or fukin' stone hit anything having any relevance, medial hysteria skyrockets. The level of idiocies they are producing to back up this shit made the whole thing already grotesque.
Russkie won the propaganda war, and this sole thing is hilarious.
The only population on the planet believing in ukro/western crap, is a part of their own societies. And that part is getting smaller each day.

If true it can set the stage for a much bigger and very sinister plan.

Might be what Nuland was hinting at...

But of course that will just colour US Russian relations for the next decade or so... Russia has been rather passive up to now, just responding to provocations and escalations... if they actively tried to damage the west in general and the US in particular I am sure they could make things rather worse for the west.

Lots of off limit signs from the US about Russian relations with countries in Americas back yard... central and south America... if the US is going to use its proxy cannon fodder meat shields to attack Russian early warning radar then perhaps building a few in Cuba and restoring their spy bases there would be a good response... I would think Cuba would feel safer with more Russian forces nearby as the US starts to get desperate and unpredictable...

Long range missiles are much easier to hide and strategic range cruise missiles replacing the turbofan engines for scramjet engines would mean excellent range and high flight speed which would give them amazing coverage and a difficult to intercept delivery system.

Build it with retractable undercarriage and call it a UCAV so it does not count as a strategic weapon...

If not, this could give the west a first strike (directional) advantage from say the Mediterranean with very little reaction time for the Russians.

AFAIK there is a lot of overlap and combined radar and optical systems on the ground and in space so even the loss of one radar would not create a problem.

The problem for the west is that it would focus the Russians so they would be expecting attacks... and when they turn out to be media events... well then when Russia responds with a real attack who is actually suffering the most...

Mir wrote:
If the Russians have their space based system in place then I'm not worried, but I am unsure if they have?

Sure they do.
And it is a brand new system, with the first sattelite in orbit in 2015 only.
It is called EKS - Edinaya Kosmicheska Sistiema. Six satellites, two on geostationary orbit.

Therefore, it is impossible to surprise both Russia and the USA with a nuclear attack.

Not completely true... someone could disguise a nuclear warhead so it looks like a ton of cocaine and deliver it to a US city and detonate... satellite surveillance wont spot that...



Meanwhile Russia forces continue forward...

zorobabel wrote:Ukraine & NATO struck another over-the-horizon nuclear warning radar in Orenburg, 1,500km from the border with Ukraine. The predictable pattern of escalation continues.

https://x.com/warintel4u/status/1794778318580982213

Whatta hell are Russia and Putin doing? Why are they allowing this to happen without retaliation? Are they content of the NATO destroying Russia without lifting a finger?

I'm sick of seeing Putin shrug his shoulders. DO SOMETHING!!!

Mir wrote:

ucmvulcan wrote:

zorobabel wrote:Ukraine & NATO struck another over-the-horizon nuclear warning radar in Orenburg, 1,500km from the border with Ukraine. The predictable pattern of escalation continues.

https://x.com/warintel4u/status/1794778318580982213

before we lose our minds over this, can we independently verify that this actually happened?

I sincerely hope this is not true. This can open a gate that will have devastating consequences.

Yes, devastating consequences for Russia. NATO countries are safe.