Russian special military operation in Ukraine #58

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

ALAMO wrote:They can leave a piece around Lvov and Ternopol.
There must be some space to deport banderits that will be found.
Let them sit there enjoying superb Ukrainian ancient civilization while shitting behind the barn.  

ah for that they can found a nova Ukraina in Canada or Australia instead of polluting the old continent.

Bite your tongue... we have too many already thank you very much!

JohninMK wrote:Putin stating Russian requirements for peace negotiations: Ukrainian forces have to leave all of Donetsk, Lugansk, Kherson, Zaporozhye regions; Kiev has to give guarantees that it will not attempt to join NATO

New territories are forever with the Russian Federation, this issue cannot even be discussed, Putin .

Putin says that “Today we are making another real peace proposal”. “It is not a question of freezing the conflict, but of bringing it to a definitive end”. “If the West and Kiev refuse, the bloodshed will be their responsibility.” Putin says that Russia is ready to give guarantees of safe passage for Ukrainian forces leaving the Donbass if they agree to the conditions on peace negotiations that Russia is proposing.

Another weak signal. Why is Putin reiterating a proposal for peace negotiations at a time when NATO is hell-bent on escalating and talking about entering the war?

It will only embolden NATO more.

mr_hd wrote:What arrogance from Putin... nevertheless I am sure Ukraine does not care what is his opinion or to be more precise they care to learn his concerns and do EXACTLY opposite. They will not stop, it does not matter if it takes 10-20-30 or more years... Russia is now in permanent war ladies and gentlemen.

Fine by me, bring it on (as 'Ukraine') if you think you have what it takes

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Here some interesting comments on the announcement by Putin's on possible peace conditions from Scott Ritter (from his telegram channel)

It is not about the west, it is to show the rest of the world  (Africa, Asia, South America) that Russia does not want war.

The rest of the world gets it.

It's not them a message should be sent to.

Firebird wrote:If Putin thinks Russia should give up and just have the 5 oblasts, he needs to step down. OR be stepped down.
End of story.

I made my opinions clear already before

Kherson and Zaporozhie are frankly too much for me already. They were fine with their government waging a war on neighbouring Donbass for 8 years, and joined in the action themselves.
Why do we want these regions and their people in Russia? Let them stay in their own country. But Ukrainian neutrality is non-negotiable as is NATO backing down and going back into their own borders down to the final inch, and the Donbass and Crimea being recognized as part of Russia. That's it.

But regardless there is no point at this time in talking about peace conditions. First vanquish the threat or otherwise force it out and then impose the conditions you need.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The interesting development of all of this is that in a few months most folks from north west Ukraine will be ready welcome the Russian troops as liberators

Don't bet on it

Flamming Python wrote:Kherson and Zaporozhie are frankly too much for me already. They were fine with their government waging a war on neighbouring Donbass for 8 years, and joined in the action themselves.
Why do we want these regions and their people in Russia? Let them stay in their own country. But Ukrainian neutrality is non-negotiable as is NATO backing down and going back into their own borders down to the final inch, and the Donbass and Crimea being recognized as part of Russia. That's it.

The problem is that Ukraine should have been already a neutral country since 1992.

It did not work.
Either Russia gets it back (either as a part of Russia or as occupied territory) or it will be always a western puppet. It has never been an independent country and never will be. So either Russia take it back into control or it will be always used for raging war or at least create problems against Russia.

You cannot hope for guarantees of neutrality (even with written agreement) without putting actual soldiers on the ground.

At that point it is easier and more advantageous to make it into Russian territories.

You can also put some law that states that people responsible of crimes against the population (and that would be every politician and most civil servant and military personnel) will not be given the right to vote and run for office even after serving jail time.

With that you'll have a generation to properly educate the new generation.

Of course there are also other possibilities, i.e. transforming it in a no man's land, or making it into a east european version of haiti, but i don't believe it would be advantageous for Russia.

Russia needs to understand that either it becomes a (positive) empire, with its influence and its satellites, or go back to the path of the 90s, risking disappearance in another generation (which is what would have happened if some mother western puppet would have become president in 2000).

I believe that you are (justly) extremely annoyed by ukrainain people behaviour in the last 30 years and especially in the last 10 years, but that is bringing you to prefer damaging Russia in the long term that to accept the remaining Ukrainians (together with historical russian land) into Russia.

By the way north west Ukraine was also part of historical Rus, even if it got separated for much longer.

OT

The conflict between the west and Russia goes back to the Schism. The knights of the Teutonic Order tried to take over Russia around the
time of Alexander Nevsky in the 1200s. U-rope staged crusades against Byzantium (and Russia) like they did against the Muslims in the Middle East.
For some reason the British have a hate hard on for Russia since they were hostile around the time of Elizabeth I. It is somehow convoluted
with Protestantism. It looks to me like U-rope has a syndrome over Russia because it could not expand eastward into their liebensraum. Hitler
was not the first western leader to obsess over it.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

ALAMO wrote:They can leave a piece around Lvov and Ternopol.
There must be some space to deport banderits that will be found.
Let them sit there enjoying superb Ukrainian ancient civilization while shitting behind the barn.  

ah for that they can found a nova Ukraina in Canada or Australia instead of polluting the old continent.

We don't want or need the bandera cnts here in the Great Southern Gulag. We have enough fools, clowns, retards, and trash already. All full, no vacancies.

Following Yanqui, NATO & Zelensky's rejection of VVP's peace proposal, a full Russian full fledged advance in the SVO is leveraged.

kvs wrote:OT

The conflict between the west and Russia goes back to the Schism.   The knights of the Teutonic Order tried to take over Russia around the
time of Alexander Nevsky in the 1200s.   U-rope staged crusades against Byzantium (and Russia) like they did against the Muslims in the Middle East.
For some reason the British have a hate hard on for Russia since they were hostile around the time of Elizabeth I.   It is somehow convoluted
with Protestantism.   It looks to me like U-rope has a syndrome over Russia because it could not expand eastward into their liebensraum.   Hitler
was not the first western leader to obsess over it.  

Brits hate Russia as they defeated the Empires attempt at penetrating Central Asia from their power base in India. That marked the high-water mark of the British Empire and it was all downhill from there. Kinda like a dirty ring around the tub after a beggar has his 2-yearly bath Brits are also driven insane by the knowledge that while their own Empire is dust, will never return, and the nation is currently in terminal decline on all metrics, Russia remains a Great Power that is defeating the machinations of the ex-Empire and its Collective West fellow travellers, and whose national trajectory is positive and ascending. Sociopaths hate being defied and rendered impotent, its a bitter pill to swallow by those infected with an exageratted sense of entitlement and who have become addicted to supping from the cup of Exceptionalism.

According to Western data, North Korea has just delivered 10,000 containers containing 5 million artillery shells to Russia.
Quite possible. This will significantly strengthen the already powerful Russian production.

Scott Ritter: West Has to Decide Whether It Wants Peace After Putin's Ukraine Proposal, by Ekaterina Blinova for Sputnikglobe. 06.14.2024.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's clear and fair peace proposal has made the forthcoming Ukraine conference in Switzerland meaningless and cornered NATO, former US Marine Corps intelligence officer Scott Ritter told Sputnik.

President Vladimir Putin has outlined another proposal to solve the Ukraine crisis once and for all at a meeting with top diplomats at the Russian Foreign Ministry in Moscow, making clear that Moscow is not interested in freezing or postponing the conflict.

According to the president, Russia is ready to cease fire and start negotiations once Ukraine begins to withdraw from the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics and the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions within their administrative borders and officially renounces plans to join NATO. Additionally, Russia requires Ukraine to adopt a neutral, non-aligned, and non-nuclear status.

"We are ready to sit at the negotiation table tomorrow," said Putin.

"Today, we made another specific, real peace proposal. If Kiev and the Western capitals refuse it, as they have previously, then ultimately, it is their matter, their political and moral responsibility for the continuation of bloodshed," the president stressed.

Putin's new peace proposal is a brilliant move, according to former US Marine Corps intelligence officer Scott Ritter.

"A [Western] peace conference in Switzerland [from June 15 to 16] that was never going to succeed now has a completely different angle to it," Ritter told Sputnik. "It will now be discussing the Russian peace initiative. No longer will they be talking about Zelensky's unrealistic expectation of having Russia leave the new territories. The West will now be saying, what about this offer? Can we do this offer? The NATO summit won't be about 'How do we expand, how do we enlarge?' It will be about 'What do we do about the Russian peace proposal?' This puts the West in the horns of a dilemma. That's exactly where Russia wants them."

Ritter underscored that Russia isn't looking for a ceasefire or freezing the conflict to make it fester any longer: "Russia's looking for conflict resolution. They want a genuine peace plan." The plan is based on the 2022 Istanbul communiqué while taking into account the reality on the ground, the former US Marine Corps intelligence officer noted.

The roadmap proposed by Vladimir Putin also meets the initial goals of the special military operation launched on February 24, 2022, i.e. de-militarization and de-Nazification, the military expert continued.

"Demilitarization will occur through the negotiation process. When Ukraine commits to not being a member of NATO, this resolves a number of issues, such as what to do with all of this NATO equipment that has been accumulated by Ukraine.

There's no longer a need for it. It will go away. So too will the NATO advisors. Demilitarization has been accomplished."

"De-Nazification… Vladimir Putin made it clear that Volodymyr Zelensky is not the political future of Ukraine. Neither are the right-wing political parties that have produced Nazi-type organizations like the Right Sector, Svoboda*, Azov**, and other neo-Nazi-affiliated paramilitary and military organizations. These will, of course, have to be done away with. But who's going to do away with that? Russia's not occupying Ukraine. This will be part of the post-conflict political rebuilding, restructuring of Ukraine. And again, once Ukraine has walked away from NATO and has assumed a position of genuine neutrality, this changes the domestic political dynamic inside Ukraine, empowering political entities that otherwise have been suppressed, the opposition that Volodymyr Zelensky has sought to silence over these many years," Ritter explained.

The military veteran pointed out that the Russian president has also made it clear that if the proposals are snubbed, the military confrontation will continue and the future requirements for peace could be very different.
"This may include Odessa, Kharkov, and other issues of that nature," Ritter presumed. "But I think Russia is playing a very intelligent move here. By building on the negotiations that have already occurred in 2022, Russia is showing that it hasn't changed course. It's giving the West one more chance to accept peace on mutually-beneficial terms. Hopefully this time there won't be [former UK prime minister] Boris Johnson flying into Kiev to tell Volodymyr Zelensky: 'Back away, don't accept peace'. But this is going to require not just Russia making adaptations, but the West."

Ritter has no doubts that Zelensky is finished if Russia's peace proposal is accepted. Still, it raises the question of whether the NATO leadership that has already heavily invested in the continuous bloodshed in Ukraine will embrace the agreement, according to him.

"By accepting this peace, this puts NATO on the eve of a NATO summit this summer, puts NATO in a bind," Ritter said. "What is NATO to do? I think Vladimir Putin has made a very intelligent move here. He has put the onus now on the West to decide, do they want peace? Do they want to embark on hundreds of billions of dollars worth of military modernization, reorganization that is premised on something that's false, the threat of Russia that is demonstrably non-existent today?"

The ball is now in the West's court, according to the military analyst. "We now get to see how the West responds," he concluded.

https://sputnikglobe.com/20240614/scott-ritter-west-has-to-decide-whether-it-wants-peace-after-putins-ukraine-proposal-1118954410.html

The next proposal to Kyiv will be worse than the current one, by Gevorg Mirzayan for VZGLYAD. 06.14.2024.

It is no coincidence that Putin voiced his proposals right now. On June 15-16, a conference on Ukraine is being held in Switzerland. The Russian leader proposed a realistic, in contrast to the “Zelensky plan,” list of conditions for bringing peace closer.

Russia is ready to negotiate with Ukraine on the basis of the Istanbul agreements, but taking into account the changed circumstances. This phrase was repeated in one version or another by many Russian officials, but none of them disclosed the exact content of the “changed circumstances.”

And on June 14, President Vladimir Putin revealed them during his speech to the leadership of the Russian Foreign Ministry.

“These conditions are very simple. Ukrainian troops must be completely withdrawn from the Donetsk, Lugansk people's republics, Kherson and Zaporozhye regions . Moreover, I draw your attention, it is from the entire territory of these regions within their administrative borders that existed at the time of their entry into Ukraine,” he outlined the first point. And thereby put an end to conversations about a possible freeze of the conflict on the contact line, implying the preservation of Russian territories under Ukrainian occupation.

During his speech, the President emphasized several times that he does not intend to distribute government lands. “The Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, as well as the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics, became part of the Russian Federation. And there can be no talk of violating our state unity,” Putin explained to the worried ones. Moreover, the president made it clear that the Russian status of the new territories should be recorded in international documents. That is, Moscow will not be satisfied with the North Cyprus option - therefore, only official recognition by Kiev, and therefore the West, of new Russian territories.

The second point is the sequence of actions. “As soon as Kiev declares that it is ready for such a decision and begins a real withdrawal of troops from these regions, and also officially notifies of the abandonment of plans to join NATO, our side will immediately, literally at the same minute, order a ceasefire and start negotiations. I repeat: we will do this immediately. Naturally, at the same time we guarantee the unhindered and safe withdrawal of Ukrainian units and formations,” the president explained. And thus put an end to the talk that Russia is happy to be deceived, and Moscow is allegedly again ready to conclude the Minsk-Istanbul agreements and fulfill its part of the deal without guarantees that the enemy will fulfill his. That is, to put it simply, cease fire under the honorable noble word of the opponents that they will withdraw the troops. No, Putin made it clear - first a real withdrawal of troops, and then a suspension of hostilities.

The third point is the requirement for Kiev to guarantee the rights of Russians and Russian-speaking people in Ukraine . And this is the point in conversations about how Russian-thinking people will live in the territories that will remain part of Ukraine.

And finally, the fourth point was Moscow’s recorded refusal to sign something with Vladimir Zelensky . The Russian president said that the current leader of the Kyiv regime has lost his legitimacy, and it cannot be restored. This is the point in the debate about the future fate of Zelensky.

It is no coincidence that Putin voiced these proposals on June 14. On the 15th-16th, a conference on Ukraine will be held in Switzerland, where Western countries and a few guests, together with Ukraine, will discuss the terms of peace, which they then plan to offer to Russia. Actually, the Russian leader outlined to them what conditions he agrees to. He proposed a realistic (in contrast to the “Zelensky plan”, which provides for the capitulation of Moscow) list of conditions that they can discuss in Geneva. If, of course, they want to. However, in any case, if, following the results of the Geneva meeting, the West and its partners do not formulate some kind of sane proposal, then the United States and Ukraine will look very pale.

And, of course, the Russian president made it clear that he is always ready for a peaceful solution to the conflict. I’m even ready to begin normalizing relations with the West, creating together with it a pan-Eurasian system of collective security. This was already a signal sent to the Western population, as well as to partners from the countries of the Global South, advocating an adequate and speedy resolution of the Ukrainian conflict.

This statement contains a signal to the elites of the West and Ukraine. After all, if they reject the Russian leader’s proposal, they will actually give Moscow a free hand for further actions.

In fact, the Kyiv regime has already rejected the proposal. Advisor to the Presidential Office Mikhail Podolyak said that “there is nothing new in this, there is no real peace proposal.” But Moscow, apparently, will wait for an official reaction to this proposal from the G7 (whose summit is taking place in Italy), as well as the Swiss meeting. And then, if the proposal is rejected, he will decide in which direction to proceed next. And the next proposal to Kyiv and the West will definitely be worse for them than this.

https://vz.ru/opinions/2024/6/14/1273142.html

Russian MoD reported 12,795 Ukrainian casualties over the past 7 days.

Close to 2.000 again yesterday.

There may need to be something left that can be called 'Ukraine' to hang all the debts on.

Register a shell company in Delaware.

Bite your tongue... we have too many already thank you very much!

Send them to the North.

I am sure Ukraine does not care 

Who cares?
That speech wasn´t directed to the Banderites or their backers.

All full, no vacancies.

Tasmania is nearly empty.

Big_Gazza wrote:

kvs wrote:OT

The conflict between the west and Russia goes back to the Schism.   The knights of the Teutonic Order tried to take over Russia around the
time of Alexander Nevsky in the 1200s.   U-rope staged crusades against Byzantium (and Russia) like they did against the Muslims in the Middle East.
For some reason the British have a hate hard on for Russia since they were hostile around the time of Elizabeth I.   It is somehow convoluted
with Protestantism.   It looks to me like U-rope has a syndrome over Russia because it could not expand eastward into their liebensraum.   Hitler
was not the first western leader to obsess over it.  

Brits hate Russia as they defeated the Empires attempt at penetrating Central Asia from their power base in India.  That marked the high-water mark of the British Empire and it was all downhill from there.  Kinda like a dirty ring around the tub after a beggar has his 2-yearly bath   Brits are also driven insane by the knowledge that while their own Empire is dust, will never return, and the nation is currently in terminal decline on all metrics, Russia remains a Great Power that is defeating the machinations of the ex-Empire and its Collective West fellow travellers, and whose national trajectory is positive and ascending.  Sociopaths hate being defied and rendered impotent, its a bitter pill to swallow by those infected with an exageratted sense of entitlement and who have become addicted to supping from the cup of Exceptionalism.  

Great power nostalgia has little to do with British attitudes. The British Empire was at its heart a global financial system that still exists till this day. The City of London, a jurisdictional entity with its own laws similar to the Vatican, is still the heart of global finance. Every major central bank in the world is modelled on the UK Central Bank. The global offshore financial system is largely a British creation with all the anonymity it provides. (Estimated $25 trillion in assets). The UK conveniently provides territories like Guernsey that allow its residents to avoid significant UK taxes while maintaining full UK citizenship. The same aristocratic and dynastic banking families that called the shots 100 years ago call the shots today. It is no coincidence that Khodorkovsky had a business relationship with Lord Rothschild.

"The West is betting on growing the conflict" in Ukraine despite Putin's peace initiative, by Angélica Ferrer for Spanish Sputnik. 06.14.2024.

The peace proposal presented by Russian President Vladimir Putin on the conflict in Ukraine is timely and important, but the West is determined to raise tensions, experts in international affairs consider in an interview for Sputnik.

Although Putin's initiative is relevant, "on the other hand, it seems that the West is betting on growing the conflict. It does not have an intention to take into consideration the withdrawal of troops and the non-entry into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)," says David García Contreras, an internationalist from the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM).

In this sense, the master in Peace Studies and Conflict Resolution from Uppsala University, Sweden, Maria Cristina Rosas, indicates in a talk for this medium that the initiative of the Russian president is accurate because it takes advantage of the weakness of the leaders gathered at the G7 summit and the presentation of the security agreement between the United States and Ukraine.

However, "to be frank, I don't think the West will accept, at least not the United States, because we have their electoral contest and, for President Joe Biden, it will be a demonstration of weakness in very complicated political moments for him, especially with the figure of Donald Trump playing on this election day," he says.

The specialist comments that, in any case, attention should be paid to the response that the group of seven, which is currently meeting in Italy, can give.

"They will have the opportunity to speak there and it is relevant because I consider the strengthening of the right wing in the region worrisome and these political groups are more nationalist. Several of them want assistance to Ukraine to be reduced (...), which may lead Kiev to force him to sit down and negotiate," he details.

Yandex Translate from Spanish.

https://latamnews.lat/20240614/occidente-apuesta-por-crecer-el-conflicto-en-ucrania-pese-a-la-iniciativa-de-paz-de-putin--1155460800.html

It's a final offer from Putin prior to the gloves coming off

But it's senseless and Medvedev's simultaneous outburst playing the 'bad cop' in the equation is similarly bereft of merit. Just retaliate when they attack you, that's talk enough. And by not making a big thing of it that actually improves the chances that de-escalation negotiations can take place after whatever initial exchange of fire.
Instead of all this hoo-haa that adds drama to the equation.

flamming_python wrote:It's a final offer from Putin prior to the gloves coming off

But it's senseless and Medvedev's simultaneous outburst playing the 'bad cop' in the equation is similarly bereft of merit. Just retaliate when they attack you, that's talk enough. And by not making a big thing of it that actually improves the chances that de-escalation negotiations can take place after whatever initial exchange of fire.
Instead of all this hoo-haa that adds drama to the equation.

Exactly, no need to “revisit the nuclear doctrine” or “renew redlines” or have an outburst on telegram

Just do what needs to be done and take confidence in your own ability to knock sense into these people by taking the appropriate action

Reality is these people work the same as everyone else, just they aren’t used to being challenged

Either the devil is in the detail with this "proposal".
Or Putin is playing a gargantually stupid game.


In other words, is the reality of the "peace offer" far different to the headline reporting.
Or is Putin making the mother of all fuckups?
Like turning a 7 day conflict into a 2.5 yr one?

I wish he'd just start saying the truth. That the Pukraine belongs to Russia and GAYTO needs an almightly slap.
You can't end 30 yrs of Nazi/similar brainwashing in a deal with pathological liars.

Putin reveals number of troops engaged in Ukraine conflict

Almost 700,000 servicemen are currently taking part in Moscow’s military campaign, the Russian president has said

Arkanghelsk wrote:Putin reveals number of troops engaged in Ukraine conflict

Almost 700,000 servicemen are currently taking part in Moscow’s military campaign, the Russian president has said

Better mobilize another million men according to hysterical doomers.

flamming_python wrote:It's a final offer from Putin prior to the gloves coming off

But it's senseless and Medvedev's simultaneous outburst playing the 'bad cop' in the equation is similarly bereft of merit. Just retaliate when they attack you, that's talk enough. And by not making a big thing of it that actually improves the chances that de-escalation negotiations can take place after whatever initial exchange of fire.
Instead of all this hoo-haa that adds drama to the equation.

What will change, in your opinion? Unless they plan to announce another round of mobilization, which they don't according to Putin's own statements, this is it. Even if they do announce, you need to train and equip these people, which will take several months. 
Maybe challenge NATO harder, by hitting drones over Black Sea? But that's about it.

So uhh GarryB is it OK to start a thread on the general thread on how to survive a nuclear fallout like, move far enough from cities, buy a lot of canned goods for storage in basement, a gun, an anti-radiation suit, a truck without fancy electronics, radiation detector, etc?

flamming_python wrote:It's a final offer from Putin prior to the gloves coming off

But it's senseless and Medvedev's simultaneous outburst playing the 'bad cop' in the equation is similarly bereft of merit. Just retaliate when they attack you, that's talk enough. And by not making a big thing of it that actually improves the chances that de-escalation negotiations can take place after whatever initial exchange of fire.
Instead of all this hoo-haa that adds drama to the equation.

Yes, its all political kabuki, but the NATOstani faggots are not the intended audience.  Russia is demonstrating to the non-Western industrialised world and the "global south" the feckless intransigence of the collective West and their neutered dog Zelensky.  Russia offers fair and reasonable terms, but the cross-dressing coke addict slaps away the hand that can save his hide while his fluffers in the West all put on stern faces, tut-tut about "Russian aggresison" and "rules based order" while looking down their noses and repeating the nonsense narratives.

Putin knows what he is doing.  FFS he inherited a broken down shambolic wreck in 1999/2000, turned it around 180 degrees, and managed to govern Russia to the point where it can effectively challenge (and defeat) the will of the collective West and its economy is now recognised by the World Bank (a US-controlled institution) as having the 4th largest economy in PPP terms (having surpassed both Germany and Japan).

People here should give credit where it is due, and give Putin and his team the benefit of the doubt.  Russia is winning on the batlefield, her economy is growing strongly, and the public are firmly behind the government.  Fck me, but if it was raining gold coins some people here would complain that they got hit in the head..