Russian special military operation in Ukraine #58

mnztr wrote:Well we know the usa is involved. But when a missile is damaged by ad or ew and hits civilians, just like has happened to some russian missiles, isn't that just part of the tragedy of war?

Of course, it is.
There is only one thing that bothers me - at least one of the missiles separated the bomblets.
Was it intentional or a side effect of missile interception - IDK
But as long as Russkie claim to take down missiles and falling debris - it is a clear shot.

GarryB wrote:HATO drones operating in international airspace being shot down would be something the US would want as an excuse to officially get involved... they could send HATO "peace keepers to Kiev" or Odessa or elsewhere...

If that's what they want to do then they will do it and find an excuse for it as neccessary.

And that sort of thing is what Russia should take notes from. Do, instead of talk.

Don't let them be the ones who decide the time and the location and the level of escalation. Russia has escalation dominance, it's its own turf. Let them be the ones who sweat instead.

HATO platforms operating in international airspace would be difficult to justify with regards to shooting them down.

At a time when American missiles operated by Americans are crashing down on Russia I dare say you have all the justification you need.

As for justifying it before the West - why bother? Russian drones are not flying in international airspace surveying the US, so there can't be a parity response.

It is funny that people complain and say Putin is doing nothing when events are actually happening... he has said that Russia can respond in kind but such actions are not instant and need to be planned and coordinated so the right people suffer and as few other people suffer as possible that are not involved.

Essentially these two attacks have given the green light to Putin to do things he warned them he was going to do.

When the damage from this becomes apparent in the west of course the west will openly blame Putin for all of it but in private channels they will likely beg to go back to the way things were and they will promise to stop escalating... or maybe they wont and then Putin can continue to respond.

It is funny... it is very much like the peace deal, I am glad they are not accepting his terms because it means their deal gets worse and worse.

I hope Putin and the enemies of the west get some good shots in before the west talks things down in private...

You're assuming the West is reasonable and will be willing to cut a deal if not now then somewhere down the line

The situation needs to end first and then investigation and analysis, and then planning a response and executing it so that the right people suffer.

Why would the situation end if the West sees that Putin is all bark and no bite?

This is the CIA switching from using nazis as cannon fodder to stupid sects of Islam to do their dirty work.

Perhaps there needs to be some racial disharmony in the US, or perhaps some problems in Europe maybe.

How about some pro Assad Syrian refugees could hatch a plot to flood the channel tunnel or the London underground... there are so many groups the west has pissed off and so many juicy targets... the Olympics in Paris are coming up and both France and the Olympic committee have given Russia the middle finger... how about something happening there...

Russia is spoiled for choice and the thing is that Putin warned them about playing this game... it is a game Putin normally chooses not to play, but so is invasion and he played that when the west ignored warnings too.

It should have been playing that game since 2022.

And really leaving people in the West alone and simply supporting anti-establishment political forces there and the Palestinian protests achieves more problems for the establishment and thus for Russia, than encouraging some sectarian whatever.
This isn't about revenge, it's about results

But with regard to results, none of this will result in the Western elites currently threatening Russia being deposed from power, at least not immediately. And it's to these Western elites that the correct messages must be sent. And by sent I mean branded on their foreheads so that they don't forget.

Russia is a country not a person... the west has been giving it its best shot especially the last 10 years to hurt Russia and has only made Russia not only stronger and more independent, but also realise what a bunch of the west actually is and that the anti colonial party called BRICS is where Russias and the rest of the worlds future really lies.

Yes Russia has played its cards brilliantly. Now the West is clambering onto the table in a rage like that guy from Lock Stock & Two Smoking barrels who lost at poker during the game near the start of the film and was promptly thrown out by the bouncers. So what's Russia going to do?

Putin has been very consistent and never reacts before all the facts are in and they have a good idea of who did what and why and when and where.

The response has to hurt the right people and hit the right pockets and still be sensible.

I'm not saying Putin needs to leave. That's what the West is saying

But it is true that Putin has become too predictable. NATO has developed a mathematical model for him and can predict his responses to stimuli.

Putin needs to mix things up a bit.

Russia needs to openly do what the west does for a short period to show the west what can happen if two plays the same game, but if Russia just keeps playing all the wests games then why choose Russia over the US or EU because they would all be the same.

Russia doesn't need to play the West's games, it needs to show the bully his place.

This 'if you do the same back to them as they do to you then you're the same' line is sophistry.
No, you fight evil as you must fight it.
And be nice with everybody else. That'll already be an improvement compared to the West.

The west has been using its interpretation of Putin to defeat him since the mid 2000s and their ignorance and clumsiness has led to his and Russias rise in power.

Do you expect them to suddenly become smart over night?

It is going to take a few elections and a lot of fools to lose their jobs before the west wakes up and smells the roses.

But the point is that Putin is steering the ship to destroy Kiev as his first priority... bullshit terrorism isn't going to stop that car crash and he needs to make sure Ukraine is done.

Well that's true, the West has been outsmarted by Putin and his team so far

But they've decided to mix things up. They're being confrontational like never before. And Putin has not adapted to that as yet. In fact the Russian elite seems to be in denial. These people want to kill you. They are not interested in 'peace negotiations'. Cutting a deal when the stakes are so high would amount to them losing their empire as the only leg that it has left to stand on is rest of the world's fear. Take away that fear and they're done. They know that, hence why they won't go for a deal. The only solution is to make them in turn fear losing something else even more than their own empire.

Putin said the opposite of turning the cheek... he talked about a response in kind... which is not something you can organise quickly if you care about who suffers and who does not... and he clearly does.

That's just the problem. Putin said. Instead of Putin did.

He is not a psycho that will kill random innocent people to upset the west because he knows the west don't give a **** about most people anyway.

Nor do you have to be. You need to retaliate against the same NATO military infrastructure working in support of strikes against your soldiers and your civilians.

This woman is sensible enough to understand the west needs escalations because otherwise they lose.

But is she smart enough to realize that if they escalate and Russia does nothing, then they can still win?

Putin is also sensible, but that is not to say he wont inflict pain on the enemy for these escalations and also continue the plan to make things unbearable for the Ukraine to get a collapse to be sooner rather than later.

Putin needs to get his Stalin act going. And post-WW2 Stalin at that.
**** the crazed cowboy crap that the US is trying for.

mnztr wrote:Well we know the usa is involved. But when a missile is damaged by ad or ew and hits civilians, just like has happened to some russian missiles, isn't that just part of the tragedy of war?

If I'm racing a Lamborghini around the city at 150mph and then I lose control, pelt down the pavement and kill your loved ones (God forbid) - isn't that just part of the tragedy of car accidents?

No it's something that I've caused knowingly, I knew the risks and I didn't give a shit about your family or anyone else's else I would never have driven around at such speeds in a populated area.

Those HIMARS and ATACMS operators know full well what they're doing and where they're aiming, so do those providing them the targets. They may not have the intention to kill civilians, but ultimately they don't care if they do otherwise they'd never be launching cluster munitions against targets right next to beaches and civilians. They'd either use other weapons systems or they'll catch the target at a different location or a different time of day, such as at night. You know, how Russia does.

NATO bears full responsibility for the terror attack that it has caused. And those who ordered the attack need to be taken out. Taken out, and I don't mean dinner & dancing.

kvs wrote:The critics of "Russian inaction" don't have any real suggestions as to what the "action" should be.

Even if this war was to drag on for the next 10 years (it won't), landlocking the Ukraine would be the single most effective means of limiting NATO's options of attack against Russia, specifically Crimea. It would also cut off a vital supply link between the Ukraine and Romania.

sepheronx wrote:Travesty. And all Kremlin did was give a warning.

I'm surprised the people's patience in Russia is this strong. Over here, even people would be screaming and in the streets demanding action.

Coping is an enabler

That’s what the copers do, they cover up all mistakes to protect themselves and their grift

They accuse a “6th “ column of doing this, but they do this themselves

What’s funny is that the Russian media space is mostly what western observers call “6th column” but it’s funny because at this point since they all say the same thing from RU MSM to RU alternative media, they all repeat the same thing - which is that Carthage must be destroyed

Westie cope squad just calls the entire Russian media space “6th column”

But their own grifters , Ritter, Martyanov( I consider him American), Mercouris, Johnson,Christouforou, Berlectic, and all the other English speaking cope squad is the only one constantly running this cope that “Russia winning”

“No need to respond” “patience” “6D”

I guess racist westerners continue to think Russians don’t know what’s good for them and we should just listen to American expatriates and washed analysts

It’s funny because it’s they who think they know everything , even though they neither live near the conflict zone , nor can even fly out - Ritter had his passport seized

So these westie washouts know everything

And Karaganov, Razvedos, Kots, FB, Pegov, Poddubnyy and in general Russians on the ground with contact with the guys know nothing at all

Then why are you posting with a bunch of westerners you goof?

Arkanghelsk wrote:
But their own grifters , Ritter, Martyanov( I consider him American), Mercouris, Johnson,Christouforou, Berlectic, and all the other English speaking cope squad is the only one constantly running this cope that “Russia winning”

In the whole wide world - and that includes the western world - it's only you and the Kiev Independent that believes that 404 is winning.

Mir wrote:

In the whole wide world - and that includes the western world - it's only you and the Kiev Independent that believes that 404 is winning.

lol Ukraine is obviously not winning

But not everything is rosy like the panopticon of western “analysts” are saying

But here I will placate the westies and say this:

Mistakes are not technological, nor are they due to equipment shortages

Simply, the political strategy has been to preserve Putins popularity at everyone else’s expense - see Shoigu

And all of Russia support Putin as the recent Levada polls show, but at the same time the entire RU media and public perception is that the SMO should be decided decisively

There is not 1 single popular opinion in RU media that says that a negotiated settlement is possible nor that attrition will force Ukraine to collapse

Attrition is a means to an end, an end that has to be forced

And that is what Putin has been delaying

His announcement with the SVR that Zelensky will be gone in 2025 is bread for the Russian observer, be calm and we will achieve everything with capitulation

But I don’t think even he really believes this

It’s just a delaying tactic to see if maybe Trump can change something (he won’t)


So his calculation is:

1) the final Ukro counterattack will kill many Ukrainians and be the end of Zelensky, this is by end of year into spring

2) Zelensky replacement will be Zaluzhny or Arestovich or some other similar character who will offer negotiations at that stage

3) western leaders will expect Putin to accept such a demand , but he knows that with RU Media and people breathing down his neck, accepting a settlement won’t be possible


4) the big 2nd army Putin has sitting in Russia is reserved for expressly this purpose, when the critical mass of public outrage is too much to bear and no bureaucratic figure can absorb that discontent, coupled with lack of off-ramps that are politically acceptable

Will force a brute ending to this show by 2025 and then a low brewing insurgency in western Ukraine

And that’s the best he can manage

Well I do agree with you on one point - Trump will not change anything. Putin even said as much. It may even get worse. He likes his big red buttons.

Any true Russian knows exactly what's at stake here. Russians know that they will have to make sacrifices but there is only one option.

Victory or death.  It sounds dramatic but that is the reality.

flamming_python wrote:

mnztr wrote:Well we know the usa is involved. But when a missile is damaged by ad or ew and hits civilians, just like has happened to some russian missiles, isn't that just part of the tragedy of war?

If I'm racing a Lamborghini around the city at 150mph and then I lose control, pelt down the pavement and kill your loved ones (God forbid) - isn't that just part of the tragedy of car accidents?

No it's something that I've caused knowingly, I knew the risks and I didn't give a shit about your family or anyone else's else I would never have driven around at such speeds in a populated area.

Those HIMARS and ATACMS operators know full well what they're doing and where they're aiming, so do those providing them the targets. They may not have the intention to kill civilians, but ultimately they don't care if they do otherwise they'd never be launching cluster munitions against targets right next to beaches and civilians. They'd either use other weapons systems or they'll catch the target at a different location or a different time of day, such as at night. You know, how Russia does.

NATO bears full responsibility for the terror attack that it has caused. And those who ordered the attack need to be taken out. Taken out, and I don't mean dinner & dancing.

Russia is at war, so all belligerants are risking civilian lives, standard for war.

Mir wrote:Well I do agree with you on one point - Trump will not change anything. Putin even said as much. It may even get worse. He likes his big red buttons.

Any true Russian knows exactly what's at stake here. Russians know that they will have to make sacrifices but there is only one option.

Victory or death.  It sounds dramatic but that is the reality.

He is probably right, but I hope 2nd term Trump will be able to push his agenda.

Mir wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:
But their own grifters , Ritter, Martyanov( I consider him American), Mercouris, Johnson,Christouforou, Berlectic, and all the other English speaking cope squad is the only one constantly running this cope that “Russia winning”

In the whole wide world - and that includes the western world - it's only you and the Kiev Independent that believes that 404 is winning.

There's no point in responding to 6th column crybabies, normal Russians understand the difficult position their country was put in and trust Putin and his people to make the right decisions to resolve the conflict.

If it was up to them, Russia's economy would be in the toilet, 2+ million men would be patrolling the streets of Kiev, the casualty rate would've been "in reverse" with several hundred Russians killed per day and Russia would be stuck in an Iraq-style insurgency on steroids fighting Slavic ISIS-卐, which is what NATO was desperately hoping for but failed to achieve. Oh and yes, they would also be protesting on the streets calling for Putin's resignation.

Broski wrote:

kvs wrote:The critics of "Russian inaction" don't have any real suggestions as to what the "action" should be.

Even if this war was to drag on for the next 10 years (it won't), landlocking the Ukraine would be the single most effective means of limiting NATO's options of attack against Russia, specifically Crimea. It would also cut off a vital supply link between the Ukraine and Romania.

It looks to me like Putin is letting NATzO and its maggots in Khuyiv dig their own graves. Every round of their peace denial and pathetic escalation justifies retaking of more regions.
The four south-east regions are just the start. The natural progression of this war is for everything in the south to Transnistria being taken back. The Kiev region is a bit fuzzy.
But I think it needs to be returned as well. If that means that most of the brainwashed population buggers off, then so be it. Their minds belong in the western Ukrian homeland
anyway.

If rump Ukria is to be left, then it must not be a viable threat in the future. So I believe that the central part needs to be taken and not just having it be cut off from the Black Sea.

Broski wrote:

There's no point in responding to 6th column crybabies, normal Russians understand the difficult position their country was put in and trust Putin and his people to make the right decisions to resolve the conflict.

If it was up to them, Russia's economy would be in the toilet, 2+ million men would be patrolling the streets of Kiev, the casualty rate would've been "in reverse" with several hundred Russians killed per day and Russia would be stuck in an Iraq-style insurgency on steroids fighting Slavic ISIS-卐, which is what NATO was desperately hoping for but failed to achieve. Oh and yes, they would also be protesting on the streets calling for Putin's resignation.

Every major talking head, diplomat, foreign policy guru sounds like Medvedev without the curse words

Russia has been radicalized by Ukrainian terrorism and wants to take off the gloves

So Putin is bargaining with society, he says wait until 2025 , Zelensky will be gone we will achieve the SMO goals with a negotiated settlement

Putin is still the #1 most popular figure - polls all show that

But even he has a limit to how many Shoigus and Prigozhins the public will accept as scapegoats for what is ultimately failed policy

If by that time, he does not achieve what he has promised, the simmering outrage will have boiled over and he will have no choice to force Ukraines capitulation

Attrition is a means to an end

That end is

1) collapse by inertia

2) negotiated settlement with core demands met

3) forced collapse by decisive engagement and occupation

You have until 2025 to show either 1 or 2 and they can still happen

But if by that time you don’t deliver, and Ukro ISIS has been working for another year

By said time you will have no other option but to go to step 3

And that’s it

All your Solovyevs, Popovs, Skabaevas and Karaganovs and Lyukanovs can’t explain this away anymore

Scratch Simonyan and every last westernophile and beneath is a blood thirsty 6th columnist that wants its pound of flesh paid in full

Nothing short of decisive victory will do

And that’s just the science of entropy

Anger and rage is contaminating Russia and no 6D explanation will stave that off

You cannot politically survive in this climate by waxing Sun Tzu, patience is running out

NATO is perfectly fine with firing off its irreplaceable stocks of nuclear capable TBM against civilian targets and you assholes are dooming.

God cursed your enemies with subzero IQs and you are blackpilling.

Finnish media is rejoicing the recent terrorist attacks in Russia saying they are "poison for Putin".

Retribution for Zelensky's armament has come to Europe, by Dmitry Bavyrin for RiaNovosti. 06.24.2024.

Retribution for the armament of the regime of Vladimir Zelensky came to the first accomplices where it should have been - in Slovakia. This is the first and so far the only country in Europe where the government has properly changed for this purpose: from those who participated in the armament to those who opposed it.

For the current Prime Minister of the Republic, Robert Fico, his integrity almost cost him his life: a supporter of the Ukrainian government, who calls himself a “pacifist,” fired several bullets at the head of government, sending him to rehabilitation for several weeks. Subsequently, the attacker admitted that he wanted to change Bratislava's policy towards Kiev.

It would seem that this should have horrified the “pacifists” from the NATO bloc . Instead, EU representatives began to intimidate the Prime Minister of Georgia , which is now rebellious to them, about Fico’s fate , which Irakli Kobakhidze himself admitted to.

So far, neither the Georgian prime minister has been afraid (in Georgia, after all, the law on foreign agents was approved, which caused idiosyncrasy in Brussels ), nor even the Slovakian one. On the contrary, as soon as Robert Fico returned to duty, the investigation became interested in one of his predecessors—the one who had the task of arming the Zelensky regime.

The main attacker's name is Eduard Heger, he headed the Slovak government in 2021-2023. His leading accomplice is fellow party member and former Defense Minister Jaroslav Nagy. When Fico and his people, having won the national elections, began to take over business from Heger’s people, the new leadership of the military department was unable to find documents legalizing the supply of MiG-29 fighters and equipment for the Kub air defense system for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

An important clarification: it was not the absence of some piece of paper that was revealed, which would have given Fico’s people formal grounds to find fault with the work of their political opponents. It turned out that all the necessary permits were not available. The procedure was not only violated, but completely ignored, and the transfer of weapons to the Ukrainian Armed Forces occurred contrary to the law.

But you can’t just take it and give Zelensky a fighter.

“Jaroslav Nagy is a traitor, and he should not get away with this,” said Slovak Deputy Defense Minister Igor Melicher. “The country’s skies remained unprotected, and citizens were in danger.”

The blow to the defense capability of the republic was dealt in March 2023. Then the NATO states tried to quickly ensure the so-called counter-offensive of the Ukrainian Armed Forces with access to the Sea of ​​Azov . The project, as we know, failed: exhausted, the Ukrainian military began to retreat along the entire front line. But overall, we had a great time. For many billions of euros from the budget of EU countries.

Now it's time to pay the bills. It is clear that in a global sense, the bill should be given not to Heger and Nagy, but to the Americans, who sat over the Europeans’ souls and demanded: “Drag everything, drag it now, drag everything here now - and give it to Zelensky.” So the Slovaks dragged them, but hopes that Washington will somehow protect and cover “its sons of bitches” are naive. They are low-flying birds and can be eaten.

Jaroslav Nagy served for many years in the Slovak mission to NATO, where his brother was the “number one person.” Heger is not even a businessman, but a hired manager who rose after working for the local vodka kings. After the pro-Western coalition came to power, he became Minister of Finance, and after the uprising of Russophobes, he moved to the prime minister's chair.

The uprising of Russophobes was associated with the covid pandemic - more precisely, with the government’s attempt to purchase a Russian vaccine, which the West put up obstacles. Russophobes called it a “deal with the devil,” but then-Prime Minister Igor Matovic even wanted to cede the Transcarpathian region of Ukraine to Russia for a shipment of the drug.

That is, Matovic, of course, was joking, but these jokes did not go in vain. Heger became prime minister, but a little more than a year later he received his vote of no confidence from parliament and began to collect money for a mockingly long time, as if wanting to cover up the scam with fighter jets. Now Heger, strictly speaking, is a nobody, he even lost the leadership in his party “Democrats” to Nadya, so he passes into the accounting department of the State Department as written-off material. Like the perfect scapegoat.

His example is a lesson to others. A similar criminal case has long been overdue in Bulgaria , where ex-Prime Minister Kiril Petkov armed Zelensky not only illegally, but also secretly from his parliamentary coalition partners. And although the Bulgarian government has changed twice since then, Sofia ’s external policy is still the same - to help the Armed Forces of Ukraine. According to opinion polls, Bulgarians are more pro-Russian people than Slovaks, but they are much less dexterous and courageous when it comes to politics.

But there is a Slovak precedent, a start has been made, Heger’s example is a lesson for others. Retribution for investments in the war, burned by the Russian army, has only just begun its journey. The Erinys of electoral politics are gradually spreading their wings.

In the Netherlands, the party of Eurosceptics (and Ukrosceptics at the same time) of Geert Wilders is becoming the leading party in the ruling coalition. In France, as early as July, Marine Le Pen’s coalition could gain a majority in parliament and impose its prime minister on President Emmanuel Macron . In Austria, in the fall, it is predicted that a government will emerge led by a party of Eurosceptics and “friends of Russia” (as the Freedom Party is called in the European media unfriendly to it, that is, in almost all European media). And at the beginning of next year, Donald Trump is expected to return , which is more important than elections in all EU countries combined, but for now we are talking about Europe.

As the experience of Slovakia has shown, a change in foreign policy is a minimum program for critics of Zelensky’s weapons. And the maximum program is criminal cases, suspicions of high treason and the fight against corruption, which spreads from the body of Ukraine like metastases. Otherwise, state power risks disintegrating: if Defense Ministry officials can spend state resources on Ukrainian comedians, why not on Ukrainian strippers?

As you know, winners are not judged. But judging by the way the conflict in Ukraine is developing, the EU countries are the least likely to win. Only Ukraine itself is less similar.

https://ria.ru/20240624/slovakiya-1954897701.html

lyle6 wrote:NATO is perfectly fine with firing off its irreplaceable stocks of nuclear capable TBM against civilian targets and you assholes are dooming.

God cursed your enemies with subzero IQs and you are blackpilling.

Pavlov’s dogs

Classical conditioning is real

Western dogs are stubborn and used to having their way

They’re been conditioned to believe in their superiority

But a dogs response to exterior stimuli can elicit other emotions - one of them is fear

If this western dog gets a stern rebuff anytime he struts around, he will get the message and piss off

He’s not suicidal, just spoiled

Imagine another country , a close ally of Russia was fighting the Orcs , not Russia itself . Orcland shared no border with Russia . Imagine the yanks helping the Orcs in the same way to attack territory of Russian ally , destroying and killing . What would the advice be then ? Attack America asap , directly ? Knowing that this will bring the yanks directly against Russian ally , while they were winning the war ? No , the advice would be to show restraint as far as possible , especially if attacks are not significant and have no immediate effect on the war effort . A cold calculation ! Nothing to do with hurt pride or feeling insecure . So why should the advice be different now ?

And what is significant ? An event is significant if it has a material effect on the war effort or the aims of the war . In Russia's case : denazification and demilitarization . Imagine a Himars hitting a vegetable market near Moscow and damaging the Cabbages for sale . Imagine a Babushka buying spoiled Cabbages to make soup for returning soldier on leave from the front . The soldier gets gastric problems and feels weak . On return to the front he fears not being able to fight very well . But looking around he sees 800,000 other soldiers who are advancing . The spoilt cabbage is not significant , no reason to directly invite the yanks to back the Orcs !

Hoping this is true!