Russian special military operation in Ukraine #59

Not impressed with Putin at all...He should be escalating now, his rhetoric and military action...instead he's giving these half-assed speeches, in a calm and uncaring tone almost, sounds like a little kid pouting "we're not gonna negotiate with you anymore!"

Truly pathetic what we're witnessing. Russia deserves better leadership...

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

Well for one thing they're not actually holding that much. You've quoted a prolific liar.
For another thing 1000 sq. km is really not that much anyway
And thirdly it's all almost empty territory of 0 strategic significance that they are now busy sacrificing troops for

Russian gains are measured in amount of Nazis destroyed not in territory

I would say that Russia shouldn't be in a rush to dislodge them if they really are so set on funneling more and more people into there to their doom - but I really do have to insist that Russia instead reacts with a hammer blow to eliminate the enemy's best troops and then starts a counter-offensive as both the opportunity and the mandate for ending the war now start to surface.

flamming_python wrote:

I don't doubt that they are fighting an existential war for independence, and for that they can thank their own president who they have loyally stood by, and who also for years refused to implement the Minsk agreements, then withdrew from the Istanbul negotiations unilaterally, and has refused every attempt at negotiation since too.
And if the pan-Turk idiots want to play the same game then they will end up in an existential war for their own independence too.

Stop absolving the hired help of their own responsibility. I see the core issue being that they have lost their fear. In addition to just their own naivety. As soon as everyone wisens up to the tactics of the Western hegemonists and refuse to become puppets in their hands, would all of the plans of the former fall apart by default.

I'm not absolving anyone. But, from what i got from talking to Ukrainian refugees in Serbia, their position is that Russia in 2014 took part of their country and in 2022 attacked them because they wanted to become a part of EU and NATO.  Some were even ok with signing Crimea off and parts of Donbass (talking about pre 2022 borders), while others weren't. And these are the guys that escaped, very educated and in a sense similar to Russians that are in Serbia. Making good money and don't care about politics and just want to carry on with comfortable lives. Not your average "Slava Ukraini" idiots. So, in those talks Russia or Russians didn't exist outside of their "aggressor" or "meddler" roles. Obviously, people that fled to Russia will not have that opinion, but they are minority in modern Ukraine.

Obviously, West will always try to exploit such views to their advantage. "Diabolical genius", of first making whole country accept Western Ukrainian view on "Ukrainianism", and then pushing two extremely close nations to war of extermination went largely unnoticed or, at least, unanswered by Russia. Nobody cares if Russian security apparatus and politicians got caught with their pants down.

I don't understand what you mean by "I see the core issue being that they have lost their fear", but fact is that Russian state doesn't have much  soft power influence in ex-USSR space and wars are certainly not the answer for that.
Much better approach was a "helping hand" to Belarus in 2020, but there you had Lukashenko to work with and not hapless "pro-Russian politicians",  headed by Yanukovich who was the biggest shit among them.
You got outplayed in your own zone of influence. Or, at least, what was supposed to be your own zone of influence.

billybatts91 wrote:Not impressed with Putin at all...He should be escalating now, his rhetoric and military action...instead he's giving these half-assed speeches, in a calm and uncaring tone almost, sounds like a little kid pouting "we're not gonna negotiate with you anymore!"

Truly pathetic what we're witnessing. Russia deserves better leadership...

I don't think anyone on this forum expected in '22. that war will last 2.5 years and, especially, that after 2.5 years Ukrainians will be in Kursk oblast.
Nepotism always comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, Prigozhin got absolved to a large degree by all that happened in the last 6-7 months around all MoD shit that came out and more is expected.

Is Ukraine aiming to achieve a historical first?


"I know many armies that have come to Russia. But I know none that have ever returned."
- Otto von Bismarck

JohninMK wrote:Is Ukraine aiming to achieve a historical first?


"I know many armies that have come to Russia. But I know none that have ever returned."
- Otto von Bismarck

I do like historical qoutes

Bismarcks quote meant he knew of no army that went in healthy and didn't come out chewed, and defeated. Ukraine's entire army isn't in Russia tho. So he quote doesn't quite fit them.

lancelot wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:I don't think anyone on this forum expected in '22. that war will last 2.5 years and, especially, that after 2.5 years Ukrainians will be in Kursk oblast.
Nepotism always comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, Prigozhin got absolved to a large degree by all that happened in the last 6-7 months around all MoD shit that came out and more is expected.

Them being in Kursk in the middle of mostly empty terrain is pretty much meaningless.
They are just idiots. And passing through terrain isn't the same thing as holding it.

Prigozhin was also an idiot who led a lot of convicts to their deaths. Not to mention a traitor.

he was a traitor indeed.

However I believe the point Cav was trying to make is just because someone is a traitor that doesn't mean everything they said was wrong, Prio did raise valid complaints about how Putin was handling the war. Him being a traitor doesn't change if his criticisms are valid or not

His problem was all the shit he did afterwards.

MoonandDarkness
@DarknessMoon21
the Tower Cooling Fill was burning , its a massive  honeycomb structure made of plastic.

it was a Drone Attack.

caveat emptor wrote:I'm not absolving anyone. But, from what i got from talking to Ukrainian refugees in Serbia, their position is that Russia in 2014 took part of their country

We didn't take any part of their country. It was a decision of the people living in the Crimea. It's like saying that the Ukraine took part of our country in 1991 because we were all part of the USSR. In reality they the Ukrainians conducted a referendum and then they separated. Moscow even came up with the Belovezha Accords just for them, so that the process can be regulated and done peacefully, and because Moscow's elites didn't want to be left alone with the Central Asians afterwards so might as well bury the USSR wholesale.
Fast forward 25 years later and our people in the Crimea made the same decision, they wanted out.

It seems like they can take, but they can't give. Until they confront the hypocrisy driving their views we won't find a middle ground.

and in 2022 attacked them because they wanted to become a part of EU and NATO.

No mention of the Minsk peace agreements their government spent the 8 years prior not implementing then and their rapid rearmament with NATO instructors and bases?
Go figure.

Some were even ok with signing Crimea off and parts of Donbass (talking about pre 2022 borders)

Make it the entire Donbass, as indeed the whole of Donbass didn't agree with the nationalist revolution in 2014 and none of them invited Ukrainian nationalists to occupy their homes - and throw in Ukrainian neutrality too - and we got a deal. They might have a problem with Zelensky though as he will never agree.

while others weren't.

I take it those others have since joined the UAF as volunteers to restore the Ukraine's 1991 borders then?

And these are the guys that escaped, very educated and in a sense similar to Russians that are in Serbia. Making good money and don't care about politics and just want to carry on with comfortable lives. Not your average "Slava Ukraini" idiots. So, in those talks Russia or Russians didn't exist outside of their "aggressor" or "meddler" roles. Obviously, people that fled to Russia will not have that opinion, but they are minority in modern Ukraine.

They don't seem very educated at all.
Or rather it's an illustration of how all the education in the world can't grant you common sense or wisdom

Obviously, West will always try to exploit such views to their advantage. "Diabolical genius", of first making whole country accept Western Ukrainian view on "Ukrainianism", and then pushing two extremely close nations to war of extermination went largely unnoticed or, at least, unanswered by Russia. Nobody cares if Russian security apparatus and politicians got caught with their pants down.

Of course the West will seek to exploit such views. But that's on the people themselves.

Why can't the West, with the same success, exploit the people of Africa, Asia, South America, the Middle East - and convince them that they can live a good life after their countries have become part of the West, in return for their loyalty to NATO and Washington and so on?
Why can't the West convince your own country into such a scheme?
They would never be able to fool them in the first place, much less then be able to slowly brainwash them into becoming pawns against Russia, China and so on.

I don't understand what you mean by "I see the core issue being that they have lost their fear", but fact is that Russian state doesn't have much  soft power influence in ex-USSR space and wars are certainly not the answer for that.

By that I mean they always had a grievance against Russia - not all but certainly their intelligentsia and enough of their population - but were nevertheless never silly enough to think that they can defeat us with NATO assistance. But slowly it got into their heads that they are the civilized Europeans and that their allies the USA are a hyperpower who can do everything, and they themselves are allowed to do anything - the West will always whitewash them. And so they went into 2014 and 2022 and all the way into now full of confidence that they don't have to negotiate with any protestors in Donetsk, or implement any conditions that they signed with Russia in Minsk, or Putin's conditions on negotiations or anything else. That they will win regardless. It's all gotten to their head.

And if the Central Asians in the future decide they want a war with us and think they can win it so be it. Can't fix stupid.

Much better approach was a "helping hand" to Belarus in 2020, but there you had Lukashenko to work with and not hapless "pro-Russian politicians",  headed by Yanukovich who was the biggest shit among them.
You got outplayed in your own zone of influence. Or, at least, what was supposed to be your own zone of influence.

Not outplayed. We never had the Ukraine to be outplayed in it. Don't rob the Ukrainians of their agency, they're not children. They knew what they were signing up for. Loyalty to the West in return for being a bulwark against Russia and whatever other non-Euro barbarians (Iraq, Afghanistan, whoever). And they believed earnestly in it.

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

Ok let's say what this buffoon says is true. Question is : are you able to hold these gains?

For all we should care, Russian military should let them in and close the door behind them.

higaru wrote:allow me to say that any calling for genocide against Ukrainian, Amercian, or what ever nation, are completely disgusting and deserved to be condemned as crime against humanity.

Well , I disagree , unfortunately . Over- predation , leading to extinction , exists in nature . It is a function of potential differences between different species . The equivalent exists in human " society . " It is a natural law , or God given laws ! This potential difference or force metric , determines human relationships , and their nature . The vast number of relationships in nature are predatory or exploitative and not symbiotic or communistic .

Primitive humans participated in cannibalism , for food , and not the ritualistic type . Plane crash survivors , speak about cannibalism . Human history and wars , are full of mass murders and genocides to usurp other people's land and property . Chengiz Khan built towers out of human skulls . The only time society is allowed to exist , is when this potential or force metric does not favour one side against another , and that is least of the time !

Morality may have some high peaks , but many more deep valleys . Very dark and deep . There is no limit to how hot ,  Hell can get . Where cannibalism , genocide , and most horrific scenes are allowed to be . Again blame nature or God , if you believe in him ( or her ) . But don't say it is immoral ! Immoral is most of creation / nature !

caveat emptor wrote:I don't think anyone on this forum expected in '22. that war will last 2.5 years and, especially, that after 2.5 years Ukrainians will be in Kursk oblast.
Nepotism always comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, Prigozhin got absolved to a large degree by all that happened in the last 6-7 months around all MoD shit that came out and more is expected.

I certainly didn't, but the fact that they have broken a few kilometres into some border areas of the Kursk region do not much concern me, but are exactly the sort of soundbites that their leader cares about and who is willing to send thousands of men to their deaths just to be able to boast about.
And yes I couldn't have imagined that cynicism of their leadership nor their population's continued loyalty to it back in 2022, you've got me there.

I did however figure that NATO would go all in and try to destroy Russia, and that their ideological fantasticism and arrogance would prevent any settlement. They would much sooner sacrifice the Ukraine to the last man than allow Putin the satisfaction of a favorable outcome by negotiations. When the war broke out I figured it was only a matter of time until NATO boots would be on the ground too, and that the Russian people might have to sacrifice a lot more than some border villages in the Kursk region to defeat them. So far that hasn't happened, but of course there's still time.

flamming_python wrote:
We didn't take any part of their country. It was a decision of the people living in the Crimea. It's like saying that the Ukraine took part of our country in 1991 because we were all part of the USSR. In reality they the Ukrainians conducted a referendum and then they separated. Moscow even came up with the Belovezha Accords just for them, so that the process can be regulated and done peacefully, and because Moscow's elites didn't want to be left alone with the Central Asians afterwards so might as well bury the USSR wholesale.
Fast forward 25 years later and our people in the Crimea made the same decision, they wanted out.

It seems like they can take, but they can't give. Until they confront the hypocrisy driving their views we won't find a middle ground.

Nothing was taken. They got todays territories during SU times. Blame it on Soviet politicians. Ukrainian agency was overrepresented during SU. Similar to Yugoslavia in that regard. Always try to weaken strongest nation, in order to create a supranational entity. Same can be said about Northern Kazakhstan, for example. Serbs in Yugoslavia were divided between three subjects, Croatia, BiH and Serbia. You can draw another parallel between two cases were only Russians and Serbs had sovereign states (Serbs had two, Serbia and Montenegro). For communists, in order to create new nation strongest nation had to be made weaker..

No mention of the Minsk peace agreements their government spent the 8 years prior not implementing then?
Go figure.

Actually, I got same type of answer you're giving know. "Separs" with the help of Russia constantly provoked. I don't see Minsk agreement as that important, since “Alea iacta est” with Maidan. Minsk agreement was only an intermission between Act 1 and Act 2, imo.

They don't seem very educated at all.
Or rather it's an illustration of how all the education in the world can't grant you common sense or wisdom

I would say that it is an illustration of the fact that people in those countries are tired and fed up with everyday political shit (in Serbia, i observe same type of behavior) and people want to just live their lives. For them, status quo from 1991. is a base, you got two independent internationally recognized countries and that was it. Whoever didn't like it was free to move to Russia. But, i think that you've already herd these stories, so lets not regurgitate.

Why can't the West, with the same success, exploit the people of Africa, Asia, South America, the Middle East - and convince them that they can live a good life after their countries have become part of the West, in return for their loyalty to NATO and Washington and so on?
They would never be able to fool them in the first place, much less then be able to slowly brainwash them into becoming pawns against Russia, China and so on.

Bad analogy.

And if the Central Asians in the future decide they want a war with us and think they can win it so be it. Can't fix stupid.

Stans will certainly not go to war with Russia. But, you can expect more Krokus type events. Stan immigrants are Russia's weakness.  

Not outplayed. We never had the Ukraine to be outplayed in it. Don't rob the Ukrainians of their agency, they're not children. They knew what they were signing up for. Loyalty to the West in return for being a bulwark against Russia and whatever other non-Euro barbarians (Iraq, Afghanistan, whoever). And they believed earnestly in it.

That is just a meaningless word salad FP. Exactly outplayed. Let's say that, historically, 70% of Ukrainians, are more connected by culture, religion and history to Russians than Western Ukrainians. Closest analogy to this war would be if Serbia and Montenegro went to war. That would, indeed, be a catastrophy.

thegopnik wrote:

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

imagine losing to this.

One thing tho, Russian roads look amazing. At least compared to shithole Ukrying.

Let them in, in droves if possible. Don't let them dig in. Use Russia's historical advantage in land mass while the counter strike is being built, ideally in the flanks so we can trap them all and parade them in Moscow..

(more and more ambushes)




Just a reminder that this is an English language forum so posts in other languages including Russian need translation.

flamming_python wrote:

I certainly didn't, but the fact that they have broken a few kilometres into some border areas of the Kursk region do not much concern me, but are exactly the sort of soundbites that their leader cares about and who is willing to send thousands of men to their deaths just to be able to boast about.
And yes I couldn't have imagined that cynicism of their leadership nor their population's continued loyalty to it back in 2022, you've got me there.

I did however figure that NATO would go all in and try to destroy Russia, and that their ideological fantasticism and arrogance would prevent any settlement. They would much sooner sacrifice the Ukraine to the last man than allow Putin the satisfaction of a favorable outcome by negotiations. When the war broke out I figured it was only a matter of time until NATO boots would be on the ground too, and that the Russian people might have to sacrifice a lot more than some border villages in the Kursk region to defeat them. So far that hasn't happened, but of course there's still time.

I'm talking about big picture view. When the war started, this forum was full with "наступает Сергеи Шойгу" and similar types of bravado. As for Kursk region, we will see what will happen.
Two things are certain, imo, one is that this incursion was just to try and create some sort of political upheaval in Russia (that is a very dangerous game as results would most likely be more perilous for Ukraine, if hard liners take over) and second is that, locally, Russian forces got caught on the wrong foot and overrun, which can be witnessed by number of surrendered soldiers.

I don't agree NATO will get involved more with regular manpower than it already is, but Ukrainians will be exploited to the last, as they are seen as battering ram against Russia.
I forgot to add my basic view of whole situation: This is Russia's war to lose. Ukraine can't win this war without huge "help" from Russia's side.

lancelot wrote:

Prigozhin was also an idiot who led a lot of convicts to their deaths. Not to mention a traitor.

Be that as it may, many of his grievances with MoD turned out to be true. I will not go further into his actions with the March of justice, because i don't know what was he suppose to lose.

It's also humorous how Putin declared this as an "anti-terrorist" operation to clear kursk.

The man is literally doing everything he can not to declare war

caveat emptor wrote:Nothing was taken. They got todays territories during SU times. Blame it on Soviet politicians. Ukrainian agency was overrepresented during SU. Similar to Yugoslavia in that regard. Always try to weaken strongest nation, in order to create a supranational entity. Same can be said about Northern Kazakhstan, for example. Serbs in Yugoslavia were divided between three subjects, Croatia, BiH and Serbia. You can draw another parallel between two cases were only Russians and Serbs had sovereign states (Serbs had two, Serbia and Montenegro). For communists, in order to create new nation strongest nation had to be made weaker..

I do blame it on Soviet politicians. But delving into history doesn't solve the issue at hand. It is still the people of the Crimea who wanted to separate. Without them and their will, and the showdown with the nationalists in Kiev that it was rapidly creating - Russia wouldn't have annexed the region. It might not even have intervened at all, preferring instead to deal with the Maidan regime in Kiev and not aggrevate any disputes with it, in the hopes of getting some other corrupt **** into power who pretended at friendship with Moscow in the next election cycle.

The Ukrainians have to understand that the Crimea was never 'theirs', in the same way that the Ukraine itself was never Moscow's - else none of these territories would have ever split from the other.
And why would they even want something that's not theirs? I don't even want these territories that Russia annexed - Kherson and Zaporozhie oblasts. Because I have no desire to share a country with people who don't want to be part of it and who can act to undermine it. I don't trust the referendums conducted there, in my view Russia simply decided that it needed these territories for a land bridge and for a defense buffer in front of the Crimea - and then faked whatever it needed to.

Actually, I got same type of answer you're giving know. "Separs" with the help of Russia constantly provoked. I don't see Minsk agreement as that important, since “Alea iacta est” with Maidan. Minsk agreement was only an intermission between Act 1 and Act 2, imo.

If the Separs constantly provoked then why did the Ukrainian representative at the Minsk contact group meeting in December 2021 refuse to read out the provisions of the Minsk agreement when requested to by Dmitry Kozak?

And if it's the case that your friends didn't care about Minsk and were all game for a rematch - well, I don't see what they have to complain about then. Good luck to them with their new lives in Serbia.

I would say that it is an illustration of the fact that people in those countries are tired and fed up with everyday political shit (in Serbia, i observe same type of behavior) and people want to just live their lives. For them, status quo from 1991. is a base, you got two independent internationally recognized countries and that was it. Whoever didn't like it was free to move to Russia. But, i think that you've already herd these stories, so lets not regurgitate.

I have, and the people they kept telling to move to Russia did in the end move to Russia. Along with their homes and their land on which they and their forefathers have lived on for hundreds of years.

Bad analogy.

So explain to me why it was only the Ukrainians (and okay, other Eastern Europeans) that were fooled?

Stans will certainly not go to war with Russia. But, you can expect more Krokus type events. Stan immigrants are Russia's weakness.

Extremists we can deal with. And if there is no war then I see no problem with the Stans and wish them every success.

That is just a meaningless word salad FP. Exactly outplayed. Let's say that, historically, 70% of Ukrainians, are more connected by culture, religion and history to Russians than Western Ukrainians. Closest analogy to this war would be if Serbia and Montenegro went to war. That would, indeed, be a catastrophy.

But it was still their choice. While it was the choice of say the Vietnamese and Indians, to which we have no cultural, religious connection and barely any historical one - to tell the USA that they are certainly ready for mutually beneficial co-operation, but to also respect their sovereignty and that they alone would be choosing which partners they have relations with and at what levels.

caveat emptor wrote:I'm talking about big picture view. When the war started, this forum was full with "наступает Сергеи Шойгу" and similar types of bravado. As for Kursk region, we will see what will happen.
Two things are certain, imo, one is that this incursion was just to try and create some sort of political upheaval in Russia (that is a very dangerous game as results would most likely be more perilous for Ukraine, if hard liners take over) and second is that, locally, Russian forces got caught on the wrong foot and overrun, which can be witnessed by number of surrendered soldiers.

I don't agree NATO will get involved more with regular manpower than it already is, but Ukrainians will be exploited to the last, as they are seen as battering ram against Russia.
I forgot to add my basic view of whole situation: This is Russia's war to lose. Ukraine can't win this war without huge "help" from Russia's side.

Locally, I've already talked about how those border guards performed poorly, at least on that section of the front. And others have already talked about that column which got taken out with HIMARS while waiting for the traffic lights.

So we can certainly see that some Russian forces in that area were not trained or led to the standards that one should expect of them, particularly due to being next to a warzone.
But that's different to Russian command being taken by surprise or not defending Kursk oblast sufficiently or any of these accusations being circulated.

The Ukraine can't win this war at all. What's driving them is just fanaticism and propaganda, and for this too, they themselves are responsible, not the West. The West was after-all surprised by their tenacity and their willingness to fight Russia
Only there is no sense in fighting a war to the last man. For what purpose then, do you actually fight at all? This obvious non-sequitur doesn't seem to bother anyone in the Ukraine.

caveat emptor wrote:Be that as it may, many of his grievances with MoD turned out to be true. I will not go further into his actions with the March of justice, because i don't know what was he suppose to lose.

Well he lost his life

But then again he was on the cusp of old age anyway and he certainly lionized himself into the annals of Russian history alongside Pugachev and Stepan Razin and similar historic figures.
Was it worth it? I guess only he himself would be able to say.

flamming_python wrote:
I do blame it on Soviet politicians. But delving into history doesn't solve the issue at hand. It is still the people of the Crimea who wanted to separate. Without them and their will, and the showdown with the nationalists in Kiev that it was rapidly creating - Russia wouldn't have annexed the region. It might not even have intervened at all, preferring instead to deal with the Maidan regime in Kiev and not aggrevate any disputes with it, in the hopes of getting some other corrupt **** into power who pretended at friendship with Moscow in the next election cycle.

The Ukrainians have to understand that the Crimea was never 'theirs', in the same way that the Ukraine itself was never Moscow's - else none of these territories would have ever split from the other.
And why would they even want something that's not theirs? I don't even want these territories that Russia annexed - Kherson and Zaporozhie oblasts. Because I have no desire to share a country with people who don't want to be part of it and who can act to undermine it. I don't trust the referendums conducted there, in my view Russia simply decided that it needed these territories for a land bridge and for a defense buffer in front of the Crimea - and then faked whatever it needed to.

I largely agree with you, when it comes to Crimea, with addition that consecutive Russian governments didn't do enough by ignoring Crimea referendum and not having an ear for their grievances.

If the Separs constantly provoked then why did the Ukrainian representative at the Minsk contact group meeting in December 2021 refuse to read out the provisions of the Minsk agreement when requested to by Dmitry Kozak?

And if it's the case that your friends didn't care about Minsk and were all game for a rematch - well, I don't see what they have to complain about then. Good luck to them with their new lives in Serbia.

You misunderstood. I said that I don't see Minsk as important, since it was created to give Kiev some breathing space. Merkel is on record with that, as well. These people blamed "separs" for non-implementation of cease fire. I don't see Minsk as any sort of solution. Intermission, as i said.

So explain to me why it was only the Ukrainians (and okay, other Eastern Europeans) that were fooled?

They have some valid, more or less, in their eyes grievances against Russians. And it was low hanging fruit for the West. A penalty kick. Make good returns with very little investment.

But it was still their choice. While it was the choice of say the Vietnamese and Indians, to which we have no cultural, religious connection and barely any historical one - to tell the USA that they are certainly ready for mutually beneficial co-operation, but to also respect their sovereignty and that they alone would be choosing which partners they have relations with and at what levels.

You're not comparing apples to apples. Your closeness, be it ethnic, religious or cultural, makes it more tragic

flamming_python wrote:
Well he lost his life

But then again he was on the cusp of old age anyway and he certainly lionized himself into the annals of Russian history alongside Pugachev and Stepan Razin and similar historic figures.
Was it worth it? I guess only he himself would be able to say.

Actually, Pugachev and Razin are pretty good examples. h/t