Russian special military operation in Ukraine #59

flamming_python wrote:

I don't doubt that they are fighting an existential war for independence, and for that they can thank their own president who they have loyally stood by, and who also for years refused to implement the Minsk agreements, then withdrew from the Istanbul negotiations unilaterally, and has refused every attempt at negotiation since too.
And if the pan-Turk idiots want to play the same game then they will end up in an existential war for their own independence too.

Stop absolving the hired help of their own responsibility. I see the core issue being that they have lost their fear. In addition to just their own naivety. As soon as everyone wisens up to the tactics of the Western hegemonists and refuse to become puppets in their hands, would all of the plans of the former fall apart by default.

billybatts91 wrote:Not impressed with Putin at all...He should be escalating now, his rhetoric and military action...instead he's giving these half-assed speeches, in a calm and uncaring tone almost, sounds like a little kid pouting "we're not gonna negotiate with you anymore!"

Truly pathetic what we're witnessing. Russia deserves better leadership...

caveat emptor wrote:I don't think anyone on this forum expected in '22. that war will last 2.5 years and, especially, that after 2.5 years Ukrainians will be in Kursk oblast.
Nepotism always comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, Prigozhin got absolved to a large degree by all that happened in the last 6-7 months around all MoD shit that came out and more is expected.

JohninMK wrote:Is Ukraine aiming to achieve a historical first?


"I know many armies that have come to Russia. But I know none that have ever returned."
- Otto von Bismarck

lancelot wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:I don't think anyone on this forum expected in '22. that war will last 2.5 years and, especially, that after 2.5 years Ukrainians will be in Kursk oblast.
Nepotism always comes with a hefty price to pay. Also, Prigozhin got absolved to a large degree by all that happened in the last 6-7 months around all MoD shit that came out and more is expected.

Them being in Kursk in the middle of mostly empty terrain is pretty much meaningless.
They are just idiots. And passing through terrain isn't the same thing as holding it.

Prigozhin was also an idiot who led a lot of convicts to their deaths. Not to mention a traitor.

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

higaru wrote:allow me to say that any calling for genocide against Ukrainian, Amercian, or what ever nation, are completely disgusting and deserved to be condemned as crime against humanity.

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

flamming_python wrote:
We didn't take any part of their country. It was a decision of the people living in the Crimea. It's like saying that the Ukraine took part of our country in 1991 because we were all part of the USSR. In reality they the Ukrainians conducted a referendum and then they separated. Moscow even came up with the Belovezha Accords just for them, so that the process can be regulated and done peacefully, and because Moscow's elites didn't want to be left alone with the Central Asians afterwards so might as well bury the USSR wholesale.
Fast forward 25 years later and our people in the Crimea made the same decision, they wanted out.

It seems like they can take, but they can't give. Until they confront the hypocrisy driving their views we won't find a middle ground.

No mention of the Minsk peace agreements their government spent the 8 years prior not implementing then?
Go figure.

They don't seem very educated at all.
Or rather it's an illustration of how all the education in the world can't grant you common sense or wisdom

Why can't the West, with the same success, exploit the people of Africa, Asia, South America, the Middle East - and convince them that they can live a good life after their countries have become part of the West, in return for their loyalty to NATO and Washington and so on?
They would never be able to fool them in the first place, much less then be able to slowly brainwash them into becoming pawns against Russia, China and so on.

And if the Central Asians in the future decide they want a war with us and think they can win it so be it. Can't fix stupid.

Not outplayed. We never had the Ukraine to be outplayed in it. Don't rob the Ukrainians of their agency, they're not children. They knew what they were signing up for. Loyalty to the West in return for being a bulwark against Russia and whatever other non-Euro barbarians (Iraq, Afghanistan, whoever). And they believed earnestly in it.

thegopnik wrote:

mr_hd wrote:So Ukrainian president says about 1000 square km  they are holding right now in Kursk region LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL that is massive, incredible success, far beyond wildest fantasy...basically in 6 days Ukraine cancelled 1year of Russian gains ha ha ha ha, brilliant.

imagine losing to this.

flamming_python wrote:

I certainly didn't, but the fact that they have broken a few kilometres into some border areas of the Kursk region do not much concern me, but are exactly the sort of soundbites that their leader cares about and who is willing to send thousands of men to their deaths just to be able to boast about.
And yes I couldn't have imagined that cynicism of their leadership nor their population's continued loyalty to it back in 2022, you've got me there.

I did however figure that NATO would go all in and try to destroy Russia, and that their ideological fantasticism and arrogance would prevent any settlement. They would much sooner sacrifice the Ukraine to the last man than allow Putin the satisfaction of a favorable outcome by negotiations. When the war broke out I figured it was only a matter of time until NATO boots would be on the ground too, and that the Russian people might have to sacrifice a lot more than some border villages in the Kursk region to defeat them. So far that hasn't happened, but of course there's still time.

lancelot wrote:

Prigozhin was also an idiot who led a lot of convicts to their deaths. Not to mention a traitor.

flamming_python wrote:
I do blame it on Soviet politicians. But delving into history doesn't solve the issue at hand. It is still the people of the Crimea who wanted to separate. Without them and their will, and the showdown with the nationalists in Kiev that it was rapidly creating - Russia wouldn't have annexed the region. It might not even have intervened at all, preferring instead to deal with the Maidan regime in Kiev and not aggrevate any disputes with it, in the hopes of getting some other corrupt **** into power who pretended at friendship with Moscow in the next election cycle.

The Ukrainians have to understand that the Crimea was never 'theirs', in the same way that the Ukraine itself was never Moscow's - else none of these territories would have ever split from the other.
And why would they even want something that's not theirs? I don't even want these territories that Russia annexed - Kherson and Zaporozhie oblasts. Because I have no desire to share a country with people who don't want to be part of it and who can act to undermine it. I don't trust the referendums conducted there, in my view Russia simply decided that it needed these territories for a land bridge and for a defense buffer in front of the Crimea - and then faked whatever it needed to.

If the Separs constantly provoked then why did the Ukrainian representative at the Minsk contact group meeting in December 2021 refuse to read out the provisions of the Minsk agreement when requested to by Dmitry Kozak?

And if it's the case that your friends didn't care about Minsk and were all game for a rematch - well, I don't see what they have to complain about then. Good luck to them with their new lives in Serbia.

So explain to me why it was only the Ukrainians (and okay, other Eastern Europeans) that were fooled?

But it was still their choice. While it was the choice of say the Vietnamese and Indians, to which we have no cultural, religious connection and barely any historical one - to tell the USA that they are certainly ready for mutually beneficial co-operation, but to also respect their sovereignty and that they alone would be choosing which partners they have relations with and at what levels.

flamming_python wrote:
Well he lost his life

But then again he was on the cusp of old age anyway and he certainly lionized himself into the annals of Russian history alongside Pugachev and Stepan Razin and similar historic figures.
Was it worth it? I guess only he himself would be able to say.