The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

[quote="JohninMK"][quote="victor1985"][quote="JohninMK"][quote="victor1985"][quote="JohninMK"][quote="victor1985"]what is happen with novorussia? who knows? maibe they just are tired up and dont feel like they wanna fight ? maibe just ucrainians make them be like that? maibe they just saw they dont have a chance in front of all the huge powers in the world? [/quote]
They are under strategic guidance as to what their objectives are and it doesn't come from Kiev. As with all defensive situations they are just waiting for something to happen and getting on with life as best they can until their future is decided. You can be certain that, regardless of what is going on politically, down in the emplacements they are ready to give better than they get.[/quote]
where from then if is not from kiev? washintong? moscow ? berlin ? paris bruselles bucharest where from where from? [/quote]
Given that this is a Russian named site and you have been here for a while I am really not sure if your question is a wind up or not. [/quote]
well i didnt watched all the news. and also another thing. right now a lot of people lie so i just dont know who to believe to. some say usa rule in novorusia. others say russia [/quote]
Fair enough, most people believe that the ultimate power in Donbas is in Moscow. Which is logical when Russia is providing much of what keeps them going plus ultimately their final line of defence. Day to day the decisions are made locally but anything that involves an impact on anyone or anything outside the area they control will need clearance from above.

Ironically this is almost exactly the kind of relationship that Minsk 2 agreed, with Moscow replaced by Kiev. It is just so sad that those in Kiev did not have the vision to see it or the guts to stand up for what was best for Ukraine rather than their own pockets/exercise of power.[/quote]


i was tinking the same way too upon how the things go. one single thing i didnt knew. wich of the usa and russia has at the moment the final decision here having the impression that both of them by negociating all even if my first impression is that by a previous establishment they decided to rotate somehow on power there but also have the impression that are two territoryes kiev and novorussia controled separately by usa and russia and both trying to conquer others part

breaking news.. US demands Greece and Bulgaria to close its Airspace to all
civilian flights of Russia with humanitarian Aid to Syria.. At least the Pigs in Bulgaria
Government have officially said they agreed to shut down its airspace to Russia.. and seems Greece is ambiguous of where close its airspace or not..

The hostilities of Americans to Russia is only incrementing , i really Hope Russia close its Airspace to all flights of Americans towards Russia airspace.. and shut down any cooperation with NASA or its pentagon. Force the ambassador or any diplomatic source to fligh using Russian planes to enter in Russia and leave. China and Kazakistan could also blockade all American flights too ,to backup Russia.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150908/1026732699.html

Here the danger is that Russia to supply Syria will be forced fly over IRAN and then IRAQ which
will be ideal for Terrorist States of America criminal Agencies like CIA to supply Advanced missiles to ISIS to shut down their planes beyond 10,000 m altitude.  it was said for example in Syria , according to major blogs of Syrian citizens ,the Terrorist have been since 2014 supplied groud to air sams that can shut down planes are much more higher altitudes than Portable manpads.

Essentially Americans actions put at risk the lives of Russian pilots of any Civilian or military Cargo plane. i really hope Russia retaliates with war if any of its planes are shut down over IRAQ..for being forced to change its course towards a really dangerous zone. Someone needs to kick their Asses real hard for them to stop its arrogance and hostilities and crimes against humanity against millions in the world.

I agree with you on banning american civil flights over Russia. As well as punish Bulgaria even more.

Neutrality wrote:

Basically held in the basement, told him which political goals he must pursue and which he shouldn't. You were saying he was one of the guys who wanted to see Donbass become part of Russia. I guess Moscow had a deep and convincing discussion with him on that matter.

I do not doubt. I hope that tomorrow he does not make some embarassing statement and admit "guilt" of anything or read a statement prepared for him. I don't expect he will fire a broadside as he will quickly dissapear back to the basement. He needs to be dignified and calm, and I am sure he wil be, but also to show some fire and that he is not beaten. This strange new world of Russia not wanting Russians to be Russian is distasteful, no matter what the reasons.

Khepesh wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

Basically held in the basement, told him which political goals he must pursue and which he shouldn't. You were saying he was one of the guys who wanted to see Donbass become part of Russia. I guess Moscow had a deep and convincing discussion with him on that matter.

I do not doubt. I hope that tomorrow he does not make some embarassing statement and admit "guilt" of anything or read a statement prepared for him. I don't expect he will fire a broadside as he will quickly dissapear back to the basement. He needs to be dignified and calm, and I am sure he wil be, but also to show some fire and that he is not beaten. This strange new world of Russia not wanting Russians to be Russian is distasteful, no matter what the reasons.

Or it might still be an internal struggle that Moscow had nothing to do with.

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

Basically held in the basement, told him which political goals he must pursue and which he shouldn't. You were saying he was one of the guys who wanted to see Donbass become part of Russia. I guess Moscow had a deep and convincing discussion with him on that matter.

I do not doubt. I hope that tomorrow he does not make some embarassing statement and admit "guilt" of anything or read a statement prepared for him. I don't expect he will fire a broadside as he will quickly dissapear back to the basement. He needs to be dignified and calm, and I am sure he wil be, but also to show some fire and that he is not beaten. This strange new world of Russia not wanting Russians to be Russian is distasteful, no matter what the reasons.

Or it might still be an internal struggle that Moscow had nothing to do with.

Do these guys have financial 'interests' or are they just politicians?

JohninMK wrote:

Khepesh wrote:DNR has stopped supplying coal to Ukraine until they resume allowing vehicle and locomotive spares into DNR. As South Africa and Australia cannot supply the amount and type needed, particulary anthracite, then this will cause a major problem for Kiev. Many will ask why the coal was not stopped before winter 2014, or at least when Kiev declared a blockade of Donbass, but we all know that $ is king  http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/2243369

On the other matter, Purgin is said to be at home, but many things are "said" to be so. Habeus corpus.....

Nice one, the hidden hand of Moscow. From past reports this seemed to be running at 3-400,000 tons a month. A case of get the addict hooked on the supply, let them think it will continue, then stop it. Will Kiev try and take it by force?

A bit more on this

The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic is cutting off coal supplies to Ukraine in response to Kiev’s embargo on fuel oil, lubricants and spare parts for the republic’s rolling stock, the DPR’s transport minister said Tuesday. “Right now we are cutting off all coal deliveries to Ukraine… They need 1.2 million tons a month, which we are ready to supply if only they lift their ban on the supply of fuel oil and spare parts for our train cars and engines and stop firing at us,” Semyon Kuzmenko said in an interview with Donetsk News Agency.

Most of Ukraine’s profitable coalmines are in parts of Donbass controlled by the pro-independence militia. “Only a third of our railway engines are now working and we need more to meet our demands,” Kuzmenko added. He also said that with Kiev’s ban on the deliveries of fuel oil and spare parts gone, the republic would take just two months to restore its war-ravaged rail transport system.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150908/1026723387/dpr-ukraine-coal-ban.html#ixzz3l9UjWMIJ

auslander wrote:
A cloud on the horizon.

http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/09/hugs-all-around-for-incoming-virus.html

Deep in this well written article about the current invasion of EU is a little something about EU asking Russia to take some of the endless hordes. This is not the first time I've heard of this and my reaction is a simple and very adamant NO. My friends in Germany are in a semi panic over the influx and are dreading an even heavier tax burden than the one they are groaning under today, let alone integrating a huge mass of people in to German culture which the vast majority of these economic wanderers have no intention of ever joining.

What does this not so sudden but hugely expanding invasion have to do with the current situation up north and Russia? Simple. With now literally millions of new immigrants breaking the doors to EU down, flooding the most prosperous countries and demanding assistance and benefits as they are crossing what used to be strong borders, the many billions of euros now spent on the war will be directed to aiding these immigrants. Government attentions now focused on the war and against RF will now be more and more focused on their new crisis and Ukraine et al will fade in to the background for the time being. Couple this with the growing annoyance in regards to the US imposed EU sanctions against Russia which, shocking to EU, were promptly shoved right back up EU's collective nostrils, I think there's going to be huge turmoil roiling EU for quite some time.

While I am adamantly opposed to RF taking a single one of these vermin infecting EU, I look at the situation in EU with admiration. Whoever did this to them is truly a master of cunning and there are already rumblings that VVP did it. If he did do it, I bow in deep respect of him for shoving a telephone pole up the dirtyhole of the entire EU. Sideways. Well done!

What is the main characteristic of "vermin"? They're organisms that enter into an organized system that functions well enough to be beneficial, or at least innocuous, and they disorganize and effectively destroy it.

These displaced persons are not the "vermin." The government of the USA and the abettors of it's foreign policy are the vermin. The abettors are the countries of the Anglosphere and most of Europe. What is happening now is blowback directly onto them for their own actions. Putin had nothing to do with it.

I'm going to add one thing. If anyone should be lauded for evil cunning, it must be the US. They decide what action will be taken, but Europe, its unimaginative toady sidekick, always takes most of the repercussions.

JohninMK wrote:
I agree with you, Moscow must be looking on in complete amazement at what the EU countries are allowing to be done to themselves but I don't think VVP had anything to do with it. Up to a few weeks ago the flow of people (I won't say refugees as most are economic migrants) was controllable and then 2/3 weeks ago the floodgates were opened in Turkey. Who did that and why are very interesting questions.

My view is that the US saw the increased flow of shipbourne supplies in August from Russia to Syria, realised the effect it could have in Syria, and decided to create increased public concern so NATO could start bombing IS (sorry we missed them and hit the SAA) in Syria that they were stopped from doing in 2013. As a beneficial side effect to some in the US, it reduces the power of the EU in the world (and is almost certainly the final nail in coffin of the UK staying in the EU) whilst driving up its social costs.

I think the distinction of "economic migrants" in this case is bogus. Most of those people would've stayed put if the US and it's abettors hadn't wrecked the societies and economies of their countries of origin, unleashing hordes of fanatical, homicidal maniacs while they were at it.

The word 'vermin', at least since I've been alive, has been used to refer to unwanted and/or rapacious animals, generally but not always small. For instance an infestation of mice in your house could be referred to as a vermin infestation.

JohninMK wrote:
Do these guys have financial 'interests' or are they just politicians?

Akhmetov is the glue that binds all together. Neither Pushilin, Purgin or Zakharchenko are personally corrupt, they are not crooks. But they have evolved from a system that works on patronage, some actually mafia style, and Lugansk is more afflicted by this, but really more like the patronage system of Ancient Rome, which was not crimminal, simply how things were done. It is essentially the same in all countries under the facade of "democracy", but more open in some, like Ukraine, which never learned to use air freshener in the lavatory while others countries do, but the crap in all still smells as bad.

JohninMK wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Khepesh wrote:DNR has stopped supplying coal to Ukraine until they resume allowing vehicle and locomotive spares into DNR. As South Africa and Australia cannot supply the amount and type needed, particulary anthracite, then this will cause a major problem for Kiev. Many will ask why the coal was not stopped before winter 2014, or at least when Kiev declared a blockade of Donbass, but we all know that $ is king  http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/2243369

On the other matter, Purgin is said to be at home, but many things are "said" to be so. Habeus corpus.....

Nice one, the hidden hand of Moscow. From past reports this seemed to be running at 3-400,000 tons a month. A case of get the addict hooked on the supply, let them think it will continue, then stop it. Will Kiev try and take it by force?

A bit more on this

The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic is cutting off coal supplies to Ukraine in response to Kiev’s embargo on fuel oil, lubricants and spare parts for the republic’s rolling stock, the DPR’s transport minister said Tuesday. “Right now we are cutting off all coal deliveries to Ukraine… They need 1.2 million tons a month, which we are ready to supply if only they lift their ban on the supply of fuel oil and spare parts for our train cars and engines and stop firing at us,” Semyon Kuzmenko said in an interview with Donetsk News Agency.

Most of Ukraine’s profitable coalmines are in parts of Donbass controlled by the pro-independence militia. “Only a third of our railway engines are now working and we need more to meet our demands,” Kuzmenko added. He also said that with Kiev’s ban on the deliveries of fuel oil and spare parts gone, the republic would take just two months to restore its war-ravaged rail transport system.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150908/1026723387/dpr-ukraine-coal-ban.html#ixzz3l9UjWMIJ

This is actually excellent move. Without coal from Novorussia and Russia Ukraine will face energetically collapse in winter, when they will not be able to provide electricity and hot water. Ukraine is also dependent on Russia for nuclear power plants as US fuel rods are not compatible with soviet reactors. Ukraine have no other choice now as to start military offensive as soon as possible, because they already lost a half of month and October, when the first cold started will be very soon there. Without capturing of Novorussian coal, Ukraine will freezing as Ukraine have no money to pay for gas and to import coal from other sources. I don't know, how much fuel reserves Ukraine have after the fire in Kiev fuel reservoars, so there could be a hard question either to use diesel fuel for diesel generators or for tanks on the front.

Vann7 wrote:breaking news.. US demands Greece and Bulgaria to close its Airspace to all
civilian flights of Russia with humanitarian Aid to Syria.. At least the Pigs in Bulgaria
Government have officially said they agreed to shut down its airspace to Russia.. and seems Greece is ambiguous of where close its airspace or not..

The hostilities of Americans to Russia is only incrementing , i really Hope Russia close its Airspace to all flights of Americans towards Russia airspace.. and shut down any cooperation with NASA or its pentagon. Force the ambassador or any diplomatic source to fligh using Russian planes to enter in Russia and leave. China and Kazakistan could also blockade all American flights too ,to backup Russia.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150908/1026732699.html

Here the danger is that Russia to supply Syria will be forced fly over IRAN and then IRAQ which
will be ideal for Terrorist States of America criminal Agencies like CIA to supply Advanced missiles to ISIS to shut down their planes beyond 10,000 m altitude.  it was said for example in Syria , according to major blogs of Syrian citizens ,the Terrorist have been since 2014 supplied groud to air sams that can shut down planes are much more higher altitudes than Portable manpads.

Essentially Americans actions put at risk the lives of Russian pilots of any Civilian or military Cargo plane. i really hope Russia retaliates with war if any of its planes are shut down over IRAQ..for being forced to change its course towards a really dangerous zone. Someone needs to kick their Asses real hard for them to stop its arrogance and hostilities and crimes against humanity against millions in the world.

Russia have other option available. They could send as much ships as possible to evacuate Syrian army and Assad and than leave Syria to ISIS. Than will be Europe flooded with 20 million refugees only from Syria, not to count from other places. Let the EU take care for them or send them to US. It's not the Russian problem. After that Russia should with Shanghai alliance start operation to liberate Iraq and Syria from Iran. Russia, China, India, Iran, Iraq and others could easily put together few hundred thousand soldiers with armor and air support to start operation against ISIS.

Seems Purgin said more than RIA Novosti suggested. He is saying that he was released without explanation, and was arrested with no real explanation other than possibly to "protect" him from ukrops DRG. He further says that he cannot find the real reasons for his arrest as they are carefully concealed and nobody will find any explanations. He also does not know where Alexandrov senior is. I am a little surprised at this as I thought he would have been "leant on" as neutrality suggests, but he genuinely seems to be baffled by these events. Maybe when he speaks tomorrow he really will fire a broadside, let's see..... http://riafan.ru/399120-purgin-menya-vyipustili-bez-obyasneniy-kak-i-zaderzhali/

Sorry for but if the article on Korrespondent is correct, then there is and will be NO fence on Estonian borders.

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3560041-v-myd-estonyy-oproverhly-ynformatsyui-o-stroytelstve-steny-na-hranytse-s-rf

Vann7 wrote:breaking news.. US demands Greece and Bulgaria to close its Airspace to all
civilian flights of Russia with humanitarian Aid to Syria.. At least the Pigs in Bulgaria
Government have officially said they agreed to shut down its airspace to Russia.. and seems Greece is ambiguous of where close its airspace or not..

The hostilities of Americans to Russia is only incrementing , i really Hope Russia close its Airspace to all flights of Americans towards Russia airspace.. and shut down any cooperation with NASA or its pentagon. Force the ambassador or any diplomatic source to fligh using Russian planes to enter in Russia and leave. China and Kazakistan could also blockade all American flights too ,to backup Russia.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150908/1026732699.html

Here the danger is that Russia to supply Syria will be forced fly over IRAN and then IRAQ which
will be ideal for Terrorist States of America criminal Agencies like CIA to supply Advanced missiles to ISIS to shut down their planes beyond 10,000 m altitude.  it was said for example in Syria , according to major blogs of Syrian citizens ,the Terrorist have been since 2014 supplied groud to air sams that can shut down planes are much more higher altitudes than Portable manpads.

Essentially Americans actions put at risk the lives of Russian pilots of any Civilian or military Cargo plane. i really hope Russia retaliates with war if any of its planes are shut down over IRAQ..for being forced to change its course towards a really dangerous zone. Someone needs to kick their Asses real hard for them to stop its arrogance and hostilities and crimes against humanity against millions in the world.

Russia will do nothing. It never does when stabbed to back by its western partners. Russia only does gestures of goodwill.

The fall in production recorded in several branches of Ukrainian industry is a very bad sign, said Ukrainian economist Alexandr Koltunovich on the digital information portal "Ukrainian choice".

After analyzing the data on industrial development in Ukraine, Koltunovich indicated that production levels had dropped in mining (23.4%), automotive (22.1%), textiles (8.5 %), iron and steel (25.4%) and in refineries and companies producing coal (38.5%).

"As we can see, Ukraine has been facing a process of de-industrialisation for two years now. On one hand, the breakdown of cooperation with Russia and other countries of the Eurasian Economic Community has caused many industrial high-tech companies to close. Other joint ventures are also on the brink of bankruptcy. Millions of Ukrainians have been left without work," noted the expert in economics. At the same time, according to the specialist, relevant government policy is "poor, populist, pseudo-economic" and a total failure.

More at http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/ukrainian-economist-goodbye-russia.html

Head of the Investigative Committee of Russia, Alexander Bastrykin, has discovered that Yatsenyuk was active in Chechnya during the first war while fighting with UNA-UNSO for Dudayev. He is alleged to have been involved in fighting against Russian forces in Grozny over the winter of 94/95 and of torturing and killing Russian POW. I presume that if a drone was sent over Kiev to kill him that the west, in particular the UK, will not object. Yesterday the UK said it was legal for them to use a drone to kill two members of IS in Syria as it was "self defence" against men who wanted to attack UK. The fact that they have engaged in an illegal act of undeclared war against Syria seems to have escaped them. However, the case against Yatsenyuk is even stronger as he was illegally on RF territory engaged in killing soldiers of RF and is now part of an illegal junta killing civilians in Ukraine. Send the drone now and laugh when UK screams "murder" "illegal" "international law" bla bla bla    
The part about Yatsenyuk is at the very end of this article  http://www.rg.ru/2015/09/08/bastrikin-site.html
Edit: Yats would have been 20/21 at the time, so old enough.

Khepesh wrote:Head of the Investigative Committee of Russia, Alexander Bastrykin, has discovered that Yatsenyuk was active in Chechnya during the first war while fighting with UNA-UNSO for Dudayev. He is alleged to have been involved in fighting against Russian forces in Grozny over the winter of 94/95 and of torturing and killing Russian POW. I presume that if a drone was sent over Kiev to kill him that the west, in particular the UK, will not object. Yesterday the UK said it was legal for them to use a drone to kill two members of IS in Syria as it was "self defence" against men who wanted to attack UK. The fact that they have engaged in an illegal act of undeclared war against Syria seems to have escaped them. However, the case against Yatsenyuk is even stronger as he was illegally on RF territory engaged in killing soldiers of RF and is now part of an illegal junta killing civilians in Ukraine. Send the drone now and laugh when UK screams "murder" "illegal" "international law" bla bla bla    
The part about Yatsenyuk is at the very end of this article  http://www.rg.ru/2015/09/08/bastrikin-site.html

Won't happen because Russia is not the West. Russia can only do gestures of goodwill, nothing else.

Painful realisation of facts, frustrated projection of insecurities on object of your hatred, feverish fantasies and wishful thinking...this article in a nutshell...

Or you could even call it seven stages of grief in reverse.

I hate to link or even click on Business Insider but I make exception now because their tears are so sweet and delicious, yummy, yummy!!!


''Putin has already won his war in Ukraine''

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-has-already-won-his-war-in-ukraine-2015-9


So delicious...

PapaDragon wrote:
Painful realisation of facts, frustrated projection of insecurities on object of your hatred, feverish fantasies and wishful thinking...this article in a nutshell...

Or you could even call it seven stages of grief in reverse.

I hate to link or even click on Business Insider but I make exception now because their tears are so sweet and delicious, yummy, yummy!!!


''Putin has already won his war in Ukraine''

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-has-already-won-his-war-in-ukraine-2015-9


So delicious...

Ignore that it came from Business Insider, this was originally in the Washington Post, real US MSM, which makes its opinion much more interesting and potentially influential. The US has many more problems on its plate that are higher priority than Ukraine.

JohninMK wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Painful realisation of facts, frustrated projection of insecurities on object of your hatred, feverish fantasies and wishful thinking...this article in a nutshell...

Or you could even call it seven stages of grief in reverse.

I hate to link or even click on Business Insider but I make exception now because their tears are so sweet and delicious, yummy, yummy!!!


''Putin has already won his war in Ukraine''

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-has-already-won-his-war-in-ukraine-2015-9


So delicious...

Ignore that it came from Business Insider, this was originally in the Washington Post, real US MSM, which makes its opinion much more interesting and potentially influential. The US has many more problems on its plate that are higher priority than Ukraine.

The author is also a member of the Atlantic Council.

franco wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Painful realisation of facts, frustrated projection of insecurities on object of your hatred, feverish fantasies and wishful thinking...this article in a nutshell...

Or you could even call it seven stages of grief in reverse.

I hate to link or even click on Business Insider but I make exception now because their tears are so sweet and delicious, yummy, yummy!!!


''Putin has already won his war in Ukraine''

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-has-already-won-his-war-in-ukraine-2015-9


So delicious...

Ignore that it came from Business Insider, this was originally in the Washington Post, real US MSM, which makes its opinion much more interesting and potentially influential. The US has many more problems on its plate that are higher priority than Ukraine.

The author is also a member of the Atlantic Council.

Thanks, that is even more interesting. The Atlantic Council is rumoured to have serious influence.

PapaDragon wrote:
Painful realisation of facts, frustrated projection of insecurities on object of your hatred, feverish fantasies and wishful thinking...this article in a nutshell...

Or you could even call it seven stages of grief in reverse.

I hate to link or even click on Business Insider but I make exception now because their tears are so sweet and delicious, yummy, yummy!!!


''Putin has already won his war in Ukraine''

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-has-already-won-his-war-in-ukraine-2015-9


So delicious...

Almost every line is full of propaganda, like Putin instigated a " pro-Russian rebellion in the Donbas region"