The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

Yes, same debris field although the 'newer' one is blurred. Even the foam insulation has the same missing pieces at the same places.

JohninMK wrote:I suppose this kind of sad news will keep appearing for a while yet.

New remains of the victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 were found at the crash site near the town of Grabovo in Eastern Ukraine. The information was released on the website of the Ministry of Security and Justice of the Netherlands.

The statement said that there were also personal belongings of passengers found at the crash site. They are expected to be delivered to Kharkov in the near future, and then sent to Amsterdam.

Earlier, the Prosecutor General's Office of Donetsk People's Republic officially asked to pick up the detected Boeing debris to prevent their possible disposing of or substitution.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150926/1027589910/boeing-crash-victims.html#ixzz3msIuDB3m

So how many victims are there then? It seems like there are more then the number that boarded.

Words fail me, 'help each other to learn' and 'beat up Russia'!!!

The Ukrainian president was quoted using violent language to tell a gathering in New York that Ukrainian and US special forces will be capable of carrying out an attack on Russia, after their instructors exchange training tips. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko told a Ukrainian diaspora meeting in the US that lessons have been ordered for Ukraine's special forces from American trainers, in which both parties will help each to learn how to 'beat up' Russia.

"We have agreed that, finally, from November preparation will begin of Ukrainian special armed forces, by the best American instructors," the Ukrainian president said, according to reports. Poroshenko said to those present that foreign instructors have already begun to train Ukrainian national guard units, which he described as "a mutual exchange, mutual help."

"It is not only in the interests of Ukrainians to learn from American partners how to fight," Poroshenko declared. "It is in the interests of the Americans, to learn how to beat up Russia." Resorting to language perhaps better suited for a barroom brawl, the Ukrainian president also told those present at the meeting that Ukraine is presently giving Russia a "punch in the mouth."

On September 26, Poroshenko arrived in New York in order to attend the 70th General Assembly of the United Nations. The meeting with the Ukrainian diaspora is one of many planned during his stay, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry announced earlier this month.

"Our country will be represented at high-level debates by a delegation headed by Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who will make an address to the General Assembly on September 29, and carry out a series of bilateral and multilateral meetings during his time in New York," said the Ministry in a statement on September 15.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027601966/poroshenko-ukraine-russia-training-us.html#ixzz3mwzvv3X1

gregoire wrote:

JohninMK wrote:I suppose this kind of sad news will keep appearing for a while yet.

New remains of the victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 were found at the crash site near the town of Grabovo in Eastern Ukraine. The information was released on the website of the Ministry of Security and Justice of the Netherlands.

The statement said that there were also personal belongings of passengers found at the crash site. They are expected to be delivered to Kharkov in the near future, and then sent to Amsterdam.

Earlier, the Prosecutor General's Office of Donetsk People's Republic officially asked to pick up the detected Boeing debris to prevent their possible disposing of or substitution.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150926/1027589910/boeing-crash-victims.html#ixzz3msIuDB3m

So how many victims are there then? It seems like there are more then the number that boarded.

There are a small number of bodies unaccounted for.

I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

Well, I'm having difficulty finding sympathy for those north of the border, too many of them were irritated when we made noises about leaving. The giggle is this is the second harvest the ukes in Kherson have been screwed out of. Last summer when they stopped the water supply from the Dnepr canal it also stopped water to a whole lot of farms in Kherson Oblast.

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

Ukrainian politics in a nutshell right there. Let's "punish" Russia but not give a single crap about what happens to our people! Who cares?!

And not a single fuck or sympathy was given that day. The only people that can help Ukraine are Ukrainians themselves. Perhaps it's necessary to see the Ukrainian state almost literally screwing over their population up the point where they don't have anything left, not even enough to buy a loaf of bread, before the Ukrainians get off their ass and actually form a coherent national resistance (with leaders) against Kiev. I don't care and I never will and I don't want Vladimir Vladimirovich risk Russian soldiers.

Sounds like BS; we've heard plenty of times already how only a small fraction of Crimea's food was coming from the Ukraine before the blockade anyway.

As such I doubt that this whole deal would have meant much loss of sales to Ukrainian farmers.

Although no question that it was a self-defeating move in any case; Crimea can always source from elsewhere (and has), but the Ukraine needs all the markets it can get; and now it has one less.

Neutrality wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

Ukrainian politics in a nutshell right there. Let's "punish" Russia but not give a single crap about what happens to our people! Who cares?!

And not a single fuck or sympathy was given that day. The only people that can help Ukraine are Ukrainians themselves. Perhaps it's necessary to see the Ukrainian state almost literally screwing over their population up the point where they don't have anything left, not even enough to buy a loaf of bread, before the Ukrainians get off their ass and actually form a coherent national resistance (with leaders) against Kiev. I don't care and I never will and I don't want Vladimir Vladimirovich risk Russian soldiers.

If the Ukrainians are left w/o even a loaf of bread to eat; many of them will respond by just hating Russia even more.

I honestly feel that there is no future to Russian-Ukrainian ties; at least with the Ukraine in the form that it has today.
Even if the Ukrainian government is overthrown and replaced with a neutral, sane one - how long will it last? How many deals and mutual-investments can it risk making with Russia before it draws the ire of its domestic Nazis and Russia-haters - and gets overthrown again?

Russia will be making a huge mistake if it starts building ties with the Ukraine again, no matter what government it will have next.

The point is that it's impossible to make any sort of serious investment into this country, or drive forward any integration with it - it is fundamentally too unreliable a partner, too unpredictable, too much grass-roots hostility towards anything Russian, too much inferiority complex among the elite in relation to holy Europe and holy America, too much naivety and mismanagement in general - it's one of the worst-run countries in the world and has been since 1991; over the last 25 years it has lost a third or more of its economic potential while almost every other country in the world (with the exception of Sudan and Zimbabwe) grew over the same period.
This isn't just true now - it was also true in the Yanukovich era. Even a ruler like Yanukovich, perceived as 'pro-Russian' - could hardly help himself in terms of avoiding every potential commitment, missing every serious opportunity for mutual development, constantly meandering between the West and Russia, stealing all he can for himself and his cronies, etc...

While it's ruled as a centralized state, with Eastern regions interests completely subordinate to Kiev (and Western regions), the Russian language/culture actively viewed as undesirable at all levels of government policy, and while its territory includes the heavily radical and nationalist Western regions - I don't see how it can arrest its decline and slow self-destruction, or become a partner for Russia.

Russia is served best by continuing its present course and continuing to progressively sever all possible ties to the Ukraine without any remorse, or any further delay.

flamming_python wrote:Sounds like BS; we've heard plenty of times already how only a small fraction of Crimea's food was coming from the Ukraine before the blockade anyway.

As such I doubt that this whole deal would have meant much loss of sales to Ukrainian farmers.

Although no question that it was a self-defeating move in any case; Crimea can always source from elsewhere (and has), but the Ukraine needs all the markets it can get; and now it has one less.

Maybe not a huge loss of agricultural sales to the country as a whole but to the small and local, often one family, farmers who have spent their entire lives producing food to sell just down the road in Crimea it must be pretty devastating. They are now competing with the other local farmers who already supplied the local market, causing prices for all to hit the floor.

Still Poro is bigging it up in the States so he sure as hell don't care.

JohninMK wrote:I wonder if this is for the benefit of Poro's trip to the US next week. He can tell Washington that even the PM is being pursued for bribery so the anti-corruption activities must be working, so please give us more money.

KIEV (Sputnik) — A Kiev district court obliged the Prosecutor General's Office to open a criminal case on corruption charges against Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a Ukrainian lawmaker said Saturday.

"Yatsenyuk will answer for a [$]3-million bribe! On my complaint, [Kiev] Pechersk District Court ordered the GPU [Prosecutor General's Office of Ukraine] to open a criminal case against the head of the government," Sergei Caplin wrote on his Facebook page.

According to the lawmaker, Yatsenyuk have allegedly taken a bribe for appointing Volodymyr Ishchuk as a head of the national Broadcasting, Radiocommunications & Television Concern.

Caplin attached the court decision to his statement on the social network.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027594329.html#ixzz3mt1SxMQR

Looks like Porko's setting up the no. 2 throne for Saaka to inherit.

JohninMK wrote:Words fail me, 'help each other to learn' and 'beat up Russia'!!!

The Ukrainian president was quoted using violent language to tell a gathering in New York that Ukrainian and US special forces will be capable of carrying out an attack on Russia, after their instructors exchange training tips. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko told a Ukrainian diaspora meeting in the US that lessons have been ordered for Ukraine's special forces from American trainers, in which both parties will help each to learn how to 'beat up' Russia.

"We have agreed that, finally, from November preparation will begin of Ukrainian special armed forces, by the best American instructors," the Ukrainian president said, according to reports. Poroshenko said to those present that foreign instructors have already begun to train Ukrainian national guard units, which he described as "a mutual exchange, mutual help."

"It is not only in the interests of Ukrainians to learn from American partners how to fight," Poroshenko declared. "It is in the interests of the Americans, to learn how to beat up Russia." Resorting to language perhaps better suited for a barroom brawl, the Ukrainian president also told those present at the meeting that Ukraine is presently giving Russia a "punch in the mouth."

On September 26, Poroshenko arrived in New York in order to attend the 70th General Assembly of the United Nations. The meeting with the Ukrainian diaspora is one of many planned during his stay, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry announced earlier this month.

"Our country will be represented at high-level debates by a delegation headed by Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who will make an address to the General Assembly on September 29, and carry out a series of bilateral and multilateral meetings during his time in New York," said the Ministry in a statement on September 15.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027601966/poroshenko-ukraine-russia-training-us.html#ixzz3mwzvv3X1

That'll be the day. how does it go? "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..." ?

flamming_python wrote:If the Ukrainians are left w/o even a loaf of bread to eat; many of them will respond by just hating Russia even more.

I honestly feel that there is no future to Russian-Ukrainian ties; at least with the Ukraine in the form that it has today.
Even if the Ukrainian government is overthrown and replaced with a neutral, sane one - how long will it last? How many deals and mutual-investments can it risk making with Russia before it draws the ire of its domestic Nazis and Russia-haters - and gets overthrown again?

Russia will be making a huge mistake if it starts building ties with the Ukraine again, no matter what government it will have next.

The point is that it's impossible to make any sort of serious investment into this country, or drive forward any integration with it - it is fundamentally too unreliable a partner, too unpredictable, too much grass-roots hostility towards anything Russian, too much inferiority complex among the elite in relation to holy Europe and holy America, too much naivety and mismanagement in general - it's one of the worst-run countries in the world and has been since 1991; over the last 25 years it has lost a third or more of its economic potential while almost every other country in the world (with the exception of Sudan and Zimbabwe) grew over the same period.
This isn't just true now - it was also true in the Yanukovich era. Even a ruler like Yanukovich, perceived as 'pro-Russian' - could hardly help himself in terms of avoiding every potential commitment, missing every serious opportunity for mutual development, constantly meandering between the West and Russia, stealing all he can for himself and his cronies, etc...

While it's ruled as a centralized state, with Eastern regions interests completely subordinate to Kiev (and Western regions), the Russian language/culture actively viewed as undesirable at all levels of government policy, and while its territory includes the heavily radical and nationalist Western regions - I don't see how it can arrest its decline and slow self-destruction, or become a partner for Russia.

Russia is served best by continuing its present course and continuing to progressively sever all possible ties to the Ukraine without any remorse, or any further delay.

I beg to differ. Ukraine is as friendly to Russia as Russia policy makes it to be. Russia could have defended Yanukovych from the coup. Russia did not do so. This was a error on Russia's part. One must realize the coup was not domestic. It was orchestrated by CIA. This is what CIA does. Coups in countries that are not pawns of the US.

As it stands, ignoring Ukraine would be a big error on Russia's part. If Ukraine cannot be pro Russia, then it must be split down the middle. Ukraine as it stands is far too big to be ignorable by Russia. Thousands of kilometers of unguarded border. All that airspace closed to Russian flights. Not to mention American military bases in Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk.

Russia could have sent peacekeepers in March 2014 when the people of Kharkov seized the admin building in Kharkov and raised Russia flag. Russia did not do that. Ultimately, Russia pays the price.

Putin's policy is not correct. Freezing a little bit of Ukraine in Donbas will not stop American military bases in Ukraine. To stop that, yes a bloody war would be needed. Because Russia failed to stop Maidan in the first place and subsequently failed to aid the pro Russia uprising in Kharkov, a bloody solution is the only solution if Russia is to have peace.

Cowboy's daughter wrote:

JohninMK wrote:Words fail me, 'help each other to learn' and 'beat up Russia'!!!

The Ukrainian president was quoted using violent language to tell a gathering in New York that Ukrainian and US special forces will be capable of carrying out an attack on Russia, after their instructors exchange training tips. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko told a Ukrainian diaspora meeting in the US that lessons have been ordered for Ukraine's special forces from American trainers, in which both parties will help each to learn how to 'beat up' Russia.

"We have agreed that, finally, from November preparation will begin of Ukrainian special armed forces, by the best American instructors," the Ukrainian president said, according to reports. Poroshenko said to those present that foreign instructors have already begun to train Ukrainian national guard units, which he described as "a mutual exchange, mutual help."

"It is not only in the interests of Ukrainians to learn from American partners how to fight," Poroshenko declared. "It is in the interests of the Americans, to learn how to beat up Russia." Resorting to language perhaps better suited for a barroom brawl, the Ukrainian president also told those present at the meeting that Ukraine is presently giving Russia a "punch in the mouth."

On September 26, Poroshenko arrived in New York in order to attend the 70th General Assembly of the United Nations. The meeting with the Ukrainian diaspora is one of many planned during his stay, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry announced earlier this month.

"Our country will be represented at high-level debates by a delegation headed by Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, who will make an address to the General Assembly on September 29, and carry out a series of bilateral and multilateral meetings during his time in New York," said the Ministry in a statement on September 15.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027601966/poroshenko-ukraine-russia-training-us.html#ixzz3mwzvv3X1

That'll be the day. how does it go? "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..." ?

Funny thing is, Ukraine has plenty of battle.hardened troops and in the past, had more troops trained by nato than maybe even now. There were Ukrainians in Afghanistan for christ sakes. Yet, they managed to get their collective asses handed to them by their own people and still having terrorist attacks in their own country. They promised all these attacks against Russia, getting back land, grabbing more land, etc etc. But how do they plan to do that? If they cant even beat towns folk who are armed? How do they plan anything when they are near bankrupt and other none Russian regions are having issues in Ukraine?  Are Ukrainians this stupid to believe any bullshit coming out of this down syndrom retards mouth?

ultron wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If the Ukrainians are left w/o even a loaf of bread to eat; many of them will respond by just hating Russia even more.

I honestly feel that there is no future to Russian-Ukrainian ties; at least with the Ukraine in the form that it has today.
Even if the Ukrainian government is overthrown and replaced with a neutral, sane one - how long will it last? How many deals and mutual-investments can it risk making with Russia before it draws the ire of its domestic Nazis and Russia-haters - and gets overthrown again?

Russia will be making a huge mistake if it starts building ties with the Ukraine again, no matter what government it will have next.

The point is that it's impossible to make any sort of serious investment into this country, or drive forward any integration with it - it is fundamentally too unreliable a partner, too unpredictable, too much grass-roots hostility towards anything Russian, too much inferiority complex among the elite in relation to holy Europe and holy America, too much naivety and mismanagement in general - it's one of the worst-run countries in the world and has been since 1991; over the last 25 years it has lost a third or more of its economic potential while almost every other country in the world (with the exception of Sudan and Zimbabwe) grew over the same period.
This isn't just true now - it was also true in the Yanukovich era. Even a ruler like Yanukovich, perceived as 'pro-Russian' - could hardly help himself in terms of avoiding every potential commitment, missing every serious opportunity for mutual development, constantly meandering between the West and Russia, stealing all he can for himself and his cronies, etc...

While it's ruled as a centralized state, with Eastern regions interests completely subordinate to Kiev (and Western regions), the Russian language/culture actively viewed as undesirable at all levels of government policy, and while its territory includes the heavily radical and nationalist Western regions - I don't see how it can arrest its decline and slow self-destruction, or become a partner for Russia.

Russia is served best by continuing its present course and continuing to progressively sever all possible ties to the Ukraine without any remorse, or any further delay.

I beg to differ. Ukraine is as friendly to Russia as Russia policy makes it to be. Russia could have defended Yanukovych from the coup. Russia did not do so. This was a error on Russia's part. One must realize the coup was not domestic. It was orchestrated by CIA. This is what CIA does. Coups in countries that are not pawns of the US.

As it stands, ignoring Ukraine would be a big error on Russia's part. If Ukraine cannot be pro Russia, then it must be split down the middle. Ukraine as it stands is far too big to be ignorable by Russia. Thousands of kilometers of unguarded border. All that airspace closed to Russian flights. Not to mention American military bases in Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk.

Russia could have sent peacekeepers in March 2014 when the people of Kharkov seized the admin building in Kharkov and raised Russia flag. Russia did not do that. Ultimately, Russia pays the price.

Putin's policy is not correct. Freezing a little bit of Ukraine in Donbas will not stop American military bases in Ukraine. To stop that, yes a bloody war would be needed. Because Russia failed to stop Maidan in the first place and subsequently failed to aid the pro Russia uprising in Kharkov, a bloody solution is the only solution if Russia is to have peace.

Ukraine needs to be allowed to rip itself to pieces. As painfully as possible. From suffering comes wisdom.

After there is no more Ukraine Russia can proceed to build (or not) relations with each of successor states separately.

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

They are suggesting Ukraine has an oversupply of farm produce which they can only sell to Crimea, I find that hard to believe with so many Ukrainian workers taken off the farms into the army. Perhaps there is a lot coming in from the EU?

Erk wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

They are suggesting Ukraine has an oversupply of farm produce which they can only sell to Crimea, I find that hard to believe with so many Ukrainian workers taken off the farms into the army. Perhaps there is a lot coming in from the EU?

The small farms in Kherson always sold their products to the markets in Krim, by markets I mean either the kiosks in the towns and villages near the border or the Kherson farmers would simply drive across the border and set up their own road side or market stands. That is gone now, down a huge amount last late summer and fall and this summer and fall almost nothing. The Krim market was always more lucrative than the orc market.

Regardless of all the screaming last summer, fall, winter and this spring and summer, VVP is following the correct path. There was not enough citizens in Donbas who truly wanted freedom from Kiev to the point they were willing to fight as opposed to Krim were the citiizens armed up almost overnight and went to the barricades. Without a substantial percentage of the populace willing to fight it is pointless to give more assistance than VVP has given. As it stands now, anyone who has stayed in Novorossiya since the beginning will never go back to Ukraine, it just ain't gonna happen. The cost to our civilians and our soldiers has been horrendous but in the end Novorossiya will live, will exist, and the fools in Kiev know and understand this. At the moment the Kiev gang are simply using every moment they have to steal more before they run, the exception being 'her', I think 'she' will do anything for the crown even if it costs her life, and if we're lucky it will.

auslander wrote:

The small farms in Kherson always sold their products to the markets in Krim, by markets I mean either the kiosks in the towns and villages near the border or the Kherson farmers would simply drive across the border and set up their own road side or market stands. That is gone now, down a huge amount last late summer and fall and this summer and fall almost nothing. The Krim market was always more lucrative than the orc market.

Regardless of all the screaming last summer, fall, winter and this spring and summer, VVP is following the correct path. There was not enough citizens in Donbas who truly wanted freedom from Kiev to the point they were willing to fight as opposed to Krim were the citiizens armed up almost overnight and went to the barricades. Without a substantial percentage of the populace willing to fight it is pointless to give more assistance than VVP has given. As it stands now, anyone who has stayed in Novorossiya since the beginning will never go back to Ukraine, it just ain't gonna happen. The cost to our civilians and our soldiers has been horrendous but in the end Novorossiya will live, will exist, and the fools in Kiev know and understand this. At the moment the Kiev gang are simply using every moment they have to steal more before they run, the exception being 'her', I think 'she' will do anything for the crown even if it costs her life, and if we're lucky it will.  

That is a key point and explains a lot of the situation today. If there was the numbers in Donbass at the start who truly wanted freedom from Kiev, things would be a lot different today.

PapaDragon wrote:

ultron wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If the Ukrainians are left w/o even a loaf of bread to eat; many of them will respond by just hating Russia even more.

I honestly feel that there is no future to Russian-Ukrainian ties; at least with the Ukraine in the form that it has today.
Even if the Ukrainian government is overthrown and replaced with a neutral, sane one - how long will it last? How many deals and mutual-investments can it risk making with Russia before it draws the ire of its domestic Nazis and Russia-haters - and gets overthrown again?

Russia will be making a huge mistake if it starts building ties with the Ukraine again, no matter what government it will have next.

The point is that it's impossible to make any sort of serious investment into this country, or drive forward any integration with it - it is fundamentally too unreliable a partner, too unpredictable, too much grass-roots hostility towards anything Russian, too much inferiority complex among the elite in relation to holy Europe and holy America, too much naivety and mismanagement in general - it's one of the worst-run countries in the world and has been since 1991; over the last 25 years it has lost a third or more of its economic potential while almost every other country in the world (with the exception of Sudan and Zimbabwe) grew over the same period.
This isn't just true now - it was also true in the Yanukovich era. Even a ruler like Yanukovich, perceived as 'pro-Russian' - could hardly help himself in terms of avoiding every potential commitment, missing every serious opportunity for mutual development, constantly meandering between the West and Russia, stealing all he can for himself and his cronies, etc...

While it's ruled as a centralized state, with Eastern regions interests completely subordinate to Kiev (and Western regions), the Russian language/culture actively viewed as undesirable at all levels of government policy, and while its territory includes the heavily radical and nationalist Western regions - I don't see how it can arrest its decline and slow self-destruction, or become a partner for Russia.

Russia is served best by continuing its present course and continuing to progressively sever all possible ties to the Ukraine without any remorse, or any further delay.

I beg to differ. Ukraine is as friendly to Russia as Russia policy makes it to be. Russia could have defended Yanukovych from the coup. Russia did not do so. This was a error on Russia's part. One must realize the coup was not domestic. It was orchestrated by CIA. This is what CIA does. Coups in countries that are not pawns of the US.

As it stands, ignoring Ukraine would be a big error on Russia's part. If Ukraine cannot be pro Russia, then it must be split down the middle. Ukraine as it stands is far too big to be ignorable by Russia. Thousands of kilometers of unguarded border. All that airspace closed to Russian flights. Not to mention American military bases in Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk.

Russia could have sent peacekeepers in March 2014 when the people of Kharkov seized the admin building in Kharkov and raised Russia flag. Russia did not do that. Ultimately, Russia pays the price.

Putin's policy is not correct. Freezing a little bit of Ukraine in Donbas will not stop American military bases in Ukraine. To stop that, yes a bloody war would be needed. Because Russia failed to stop Maidan in the first place and subsequently failed to aid the pro Russia uprising in Kharkov, a bloody solution is the only solution if Russia is to have peace.

Ukraine needs to be allowed to rip itself to pieces. As painfully as possible. From suffering comes wisdom.

After there is no more Ukraine Russia can proceed to build (or not) relations with each of successor states separately.  

This has been discussed many times now, and with each time a different solution is presented. Hind sight is a wonderful thing. Yes the Ukrainian coup was engineered by Uncle Sam, but that was only made possible due to the ultra-nationalist elements, rampant corruption on every level from law enforcement to government officials, US NGOs that had been allowed to fester like a rotting wound. But most of all? It was the illusion of the West that so many Ukrops had sold themselves to. They were willing to blame everything on Russia, and believe the EU could fix it all. You would want to send Russian peacekeepers into that? There was a very small pro-Russian contingent in the Western half of the country, who had seen the writing on the wall. Look what happened when they took a stand... foolish heroes that they were. The ones in Odessa were burnt alive for their crimes. Others were beaten and shot and butchered. No, Russian peacekeepers would have arrived in an unrecognizable Ukraine, seething with hatred, shots would be fired in no time.

Eastern Ukraine proved its people were of sterner stuff, far less prone to being fooled by the fool. Crimea was the same.

As for "Putin's" policy, (I don't know what keeps happening to Russia's foreign policy, it seems to be replaced by Putin's like he's Kim Jong from NK) to me WW3 has been like watching a Chess Grand Master play a three-year old. And the three-year old isn't Russia. Ukraine has failed for the US, it will never be stable enough for them to station bases there, and it has only served to divide the wheat from the chaff, and give rise to a heavily pro-Russian state by the name of Novorossiya, to say nothing of the unlimited potential of Crimea. Syria has failed for the US, Assad has held out far longer than they estimated, and most of the world sees them as responsible for and even the sponsors of ISIS, Russia and Iran are now stepping up their game to end the war. Obama's Asian Pivot has only spurred the economic alliances between the major Asian economies outside of US hegemony to hasten their activities. The US is becoming more and more mired in a dying economy, failed foreign policy, failed government, failed everything. US allies are either completely losing the plot (Japan, Israel) or literally imploding under the weight of US actions in the Mid East (EU), or jumping ship entirely (Saudis). Things are looking up... lets get some positive attitude going eh?

ultron wrote:

flamming_python wrote:If the Ukrainians are left w/o even a loaf of bread to eat; many of them will respond by just hating Russia even more.

I honestly feel that there is no future to Russian-Ukrainian ties; at least with the Ukraine in the form that it has today.
Even if the Ukrainian government is overthrown and replaced with a neutral, sane one - how long will it last? How many deals and mutual-investments can it risk making with Russia before it draws the ire of its domestic Nazis and Russia-haters - and gets overthrown again?

Russia will be making a huge mistake if it starts building ties with the Ukraine again, no matter what government it will have next.

The point is that it's impossible to make any sort of serious investment into this country, or drive forward any integration with it - it is fundamentally too unreliable a partner, too unpredictable, too much grass-roots hostility towards anything Russian, too much inferiority complex among the elite in relation to holy Europe and holy America, too much naivety and mismanagement in general - it's one of the worst-run countries in the world and has been since 1991; over the last 25 years it has lost a third or more of its economic potential while almost every other country in the world (with the exception of Sudan and Zimbabwe) grew over the same period.
This isn't just true now - it was also true in the Yanukovich era. Even a ruler like Yanukovich, perceived as 'pro-Russian' - could hardly help himself in terms of avoiding every potential commitment, missing every serious opportunity for mutual development, constantly meandering between the West and Russia, stealing all he can for himself and his cronies, etc...

While it's ruled as a centralized state, with Eastern regions interests completely subordinate to Kiev (and Western regions), the Russian language/culture actively viewed as undesirable at all levels of government policy, and while its territory includes the heavily radical and nationalist Western regions - I don't see how it can arrest its decline and slow self-destruction, or become a partner for Russia.

Russia is served best by continuing its present course and continuing to progressively sever all possible ties to the Ukraine without any remorse, or any further delay.

I beg to differ. Ukraine is as friendly to Russia as Russia policy makes it to be. Russia could have defended Yanukovych from the coup. Russia did not do so. This was a error on Russia's part. One must realize the coup was not domestic. It was orchestrated by CIA. This is what CIA does. Coups in countries that are not pawns of the US.

You beg to differ however you've actually illustrated part of the problem.

What kind of a partner could a country be whose president has to be defended by Russia from a CIA coup?

Sounds like an unstable, hopelessly corrupt state where the leader doesn't have his boyars on a leash.
Because you know, that's exactly what the Ukraine is, and why Yanukovich was deposed.

Do you see CIA coups in Russia? Belarus? India maybe? China? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? Vietnam? Hell Nicaragua even?

Actually they were tried in Russia. In Belarus too. Iran. Kyrgyzstan. Venezuela. Syria. Everywhere they failed. Why? Because the people themselves didn't allow it, and rather than rally behind the slogans of foreign powers and diplomats, and the oligarchs and the rich elite of the country that was paid off by them - the people instead rallied behind their elected governments, their head of state, their army and their constitution.

In the Ukraine that didn't happen. Because everything's for sale there. And they had a hardcore group of fighters that was ready to rage against everything Russian.
The CIA coup in the Ukraine succeeded because the people of the country themselves supported it. They wanted to support it. They relished the slogans, and the attention their country was getting from those superior countries of Europe and America to the West of them.
That's how Washington regime-change strategies function at least partially these days - by grass-roots support. In the Ukraine they had it in spades.

What would you have Russia do against that? And why should Russia do anything? Should Russia involve its military or any other resources to try and keep a foreign head of state in power? To what end? How will Russia benefit? And what does Russia need from such unstable countries that's so important?

As it stands, ignoring Ukraine would be a big error on Russia's part. If Ukraine cannot be pro Russia, then it must be split down the middle. Ukraine as it stands is far too big to be ignorable by Russia. Thousands of kilometers of unguarded border. All that airspace closed to Russian flights. Not to mention American military bases in Kharkov, Lugansk, Donetsk.

Regions splitting off from the Ukraine into a different country is certainly one possible solution, and with such states Russia can certainly build closer ties with and integrate them.
There are other possibilities too.

But if you're implying that Russia should decide for the people of these regions, and for the people of the Eastern Ukraine as a whole - what their future should be and in which country, and fight all their battles for them (while even in today's situation most of them aren't even lifting a finger whether out of apathy to Kiev, or sympathy) - then I have to voice my disagreement.

Russia could have sent peacekeepers in March 2014 when the people of Kharkov seized the admin building in Kharkov and raised Russia flag. Russia did not do that. Ultimately, Russia pays the price.

It wasn't clear how much of Kharkov's population would have supported a Russian military intervention on their territory - and frankly it is still unclear.
Why should Russia send its military into somewhere where it might not be welcome, or would only be partially welcome? Again - what would Russia hope to achieve by that? I'm not even talking about the fact that this territory is part of another country.

And Peacekeepers are something that have to be authorized by the UN.
In the early 90s, the US & pals were less insane than they were today, and weren't keen to alarm Russia with encroachment - hence why they agreed on a UN Mandated Russian Peacekeeping presence in Moldova and Georgia.
Good luck getting that today though.

Putin's policy is not correct. Freezing a little bit of Ukraine in Donbas will not stop American military bases in Ukraine. To stop that, yes a bloody war would be needed. Because Russia failed to stop Maidan in the first place and subsequently failed to aid the pro Russia uprising in Kharkov, a bloody solution is the only solution if Russia is to have peace.

Cutting all ties would be a good next step; this would effectively insulate Russia from most possible consequences, and would also reduce the EU's/US's long-term chances there to a minimum. There is no need for launching a bloody war.

My point is really that even after the US and EU have been evicted, or withdraw of their own accord from a rapidly failing project - it would still be unwise to rebuild ties with the Ukraine.
They should be cut and stay cut. Not out of harshness, or vengeance, but cold logic and pure pragmatism - the Ukraine is a black hole and any effort or investment Russia puts into there will disappear as it has done for the past 25 years. Therefore it's best to prevent such temptation from occurring. Be polite of course, and open to market-price trade - but other than that give them nothing.

I think this is a good video for anyone to watch that supports Russian troops being sent into Ukraine.

PapaDragon wrote:
I am tellin' you guys, we are all psychics here, every last one of us...      

"Blockade of Crimea Turning Into Disaster for Ukrainian Farmers"

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027614900/crimea-ukraine-food-blockade.html#ixzz3mxHprMzP

......................Ukrainian television news program Sobytiya cited local farmers enraged over the consequences of the blockade on their communities.

"How are we supposed to live? How are we to survive? The winter is coming. If you decide to close the so-called 'border', find us an alternative market," one farmer noted. Another recalled that "earlier, Crimea took everything, gave a good price, but now we have to throw everything out –to feed our chickens and pigs with good produce. It's just not worth taking it to market.".................

What if Crimea returns the favor and demand the blockade stays? S would HTF for sure.

JohninMK wrote:(.......)

"It is not only in the interests of Ukrainians to learn from American partners how to fight," Poroshenko declared. "It is in the interests of the Americans, to learn how to beat up Russia." Resorting to language perhaps better suited for a barroom brawl, the Ukrainian president also told those present at the meeting that Ukraine is presently giving Russia a "punch in the mouth."

(........)

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150927/1027601966/poroshenko-ukraine-russia-training-us.html#ixzz3mwzvv3X1

Porkie admit it. He is fighting Russia for America. Kyiv regime is a bunch of mecenaries, no more, no less.

Anybody remember how many US-trained FSA is still alive and fighting in Syria right now ? The U.S. admitted that only 4 or 5 amongst 100, isn't it ?

From Putin

http://www.rt.com/news/316687-putin-interview-sovereignty-ukraine/

Putin: All countries should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty

The sovereignty of all states, including Ukraine, should be respected, Russian President Vladimir Putin told CBS’s ‘60 Minutes,’ stressing that he knows “for sure” that the US was involved in the ouster of President Yanukovich in 2014.

Speaking to veteran journalist Charlie Rose, Putin said that Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine, adding that “at no time in the past, now or in the future has or will Russia take any part in actions aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government.”

He added that Moscow “would like other countries to respect the sovereignty of other states, including Ukraine. Respecting the sovereignty means preventing coups, unconstitutional actions and illegitimate overthrowing of the legitimate government.”