The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

higurashihougi wrote:From Putin

http://www.rt.com/news/316687-putin-interview-sovereignty-ukraine/

Putin: All countries should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty

The sovereignty of all states, including Ukraine, should be respected, Russian President Vladimir Putin told CBS’s ‘60 Minutes,’ stressing that he knows “for sure” that the US was involved in the ouster of President Yanukovich in 2014.

Speaking to veteran journalist Charlie Rose, Putin said that Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine, adding that “at no time in the past, now or in the future has or will Russia take any part in actions aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government.”

He added that Moscow “would like other countries to respect the sovereignty of other states, including Ukraine. Respecting the sovereignty means preventing coups, unconstitutional actions and illegitimate overthrowing of the legitimate government.”

What a loser. Not sure if he's serious or not, but for sure the worst president in the world. His saving grace is he got Crimea back. He betrayed NAF by forcing them to sign Minsk agreements. NAF could have taken Kiev had Putin supplied them with arms and used air strikes to demolish the Ukrainian army.

Well, it appears flagship victory is back under a new alias.

sepheronx wrote:Well, it appears flagship victory is back under a new alias.

What a surprise, but he never left. Huasfrau is another account of his, writing style is identical.

Vladimir Putin on 60 Minutes,

I couldn't believe it! He was great. WHAT is going on? Is a policy change in the works in the United States?? by whom? what faction?? the Pentagon? the CIA? who?? Republican Party? Democrats? Wall Street??

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-russian-president-60-minutes-charlie-rose/

Ukraine:

interview/ conversation from 60 minutes!

"Recent tension between the United States and Russia began after Ukraine's president Yanukovych was overthrown and fled to Russia. Putin responded by annexing Crimea, leading the U.S. and Western allies to impose tough economic sanctions against Russia.

President Putin: Ukraine is a separate and major issue for us. It is our closest neighbor. We've always said that this is our sister country. It's not only a Slavic people. We have common history, common culture, common religion, and many things in common. What I believe is absolutely unacceptable is the resolution of internal political issues in the former USSR Republics, through "color revolutions," through coup d'états, through unconstitutional removal of power. That is totally unacceptable. Our partners in the United States have supported those who ousted Yanukovych.

Charlie Rose: You believe that the United States had something to do with the ousting of Yanukovych, and he had to flee to Russia.

President Putin: I know that for sure.

Charlie Rose: How do you know that for sure?

President Putin: I know those people who live in Ukraine. We have thousands of contacts with them. We know who and where, when, who exactly met with someone and worked with those who ousted Yanukovych, how they were supported, how much they were paid, how they were trained, where, in which countries, and who those instructors were. We know everything.

For the record, the U.S. government has denied any involvement in the removal of the Ukrainian leader.

Charlie Rose: You respect the sovereignty of Ukraine?

President Putin: Sure. But we want countries to respect the sovereignty of other countries and Ukraine in particular. Respect for sovereignty means to not allow unconstitutional action and coup d'états, the removal of legitimate power.

Charlie Rose: How will the renewal of legitimate power take place in your judgment? How will that come about? And what role will Russia play?

President Putin: Russia has not taken part and is not going to take part in any actions aimed at removing the legitimate government.

Charlie Rose: You have a military presence on the border of Ukraine. And some even argue that there have been Russian troops in Ukraine.

President Putin: Well, you do have a military presence in Europe?

Charlie Rose: Yes.

President Putin: American tactical nuclear weapons are in Europe. Let's not forget that. What does this mean? Does it mean that you've occupied Germany or that you've transformed the occupation forces into NATO forces? And if we have our military forces on our territory, on the border with some state, you believe this is a crime?"

Those Stephan Bandera, Nazi lovers surely like to burn tires and hate Jewish people!

Ivan Katchanovski
13 hrs · Edited ·

The Neo-Nazi Misanthropic Division group posts a video showing the Holocaust Memorial in Babi Yar in Kyiv being set on fire. Many of its members serve in the neo-Nazi-led Azov Regiment of the National Guard of Ukraine. One of the commentators to the video admitted that they had to cut short their attack because it was noticed. His VK page is dominated by Azov and Misanthropic Division links and symbols. But, as usual, "Zissels and his colleagues" stated "that it is possible that the attacks were initiated as provocations in order to discredit Ukraine as part of its ongoing military conflict." The Ukrainian media reported that this memorial was set on fire on September 13 by unknown persons.

http://vk.com/video162533087_171313373?list=74c4f8e20fb3fbb2b6

ultron wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From Putin

http://www.rt.com/news/316687-putin-interview-sovereignty-ukraine/

Putin: All countries should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty

The sovereignty of all states, including Ukraine, should be respected, Russian President Vladimir Putin told CBS’s ‘60 Minutes,’ stressing that he knows “for sure” that the US was involved in the ouster of President Yanukovich in 2014.

Speaking to veteran journalist Charlie Rose, Putin said that Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine, adding that “at no time in the past, now or in the future has or will Russia take any part in actions aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government.”

He added that Moscow “would like other countries to respect the sovereignty of other states, including Ukraine. Respecting the sovereignty means preventing coups, unconstitutional actions and illegitimate overthrowing of the legitimate government.”

What a loser. Not sure if he's serious or not, but for sure the worst president in the world. His saving grace is he got Crimea back. He betrayed NAF by forcing them to sign Minsk agreements. NAF could have taken Kiev had Putin supplied them with arms and used air strikes to demolish the Ukrainian army.

He is Russias president, not of some newly created respublics. He is acting in the interest of Russia

Regular wrote:

ultron wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From Putin

http://www.rt.com/news/316687-putin-interview-sovereignty-ukraine/

Putin: All countries should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty

The sovereignty of all states, including Ukraine, should be respected, Russian President Vladimir Putin told CBS’s ‘60 Minutes,’ stressing that he knows “for sure” that the US was involved in the ouster of President Yanukovich in 2014.

Speaking to veteran journalist Charlie Rose, Putin said that Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine, adding that “at no time in the past, now or in the future has or will Russia take any part in actions aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government.”

He added that Moscow “would like other countries to respect the sovereignty of other states, including Ukraine. Respecting the sovereignty means preventing coups, unconstitutional actions and illegitimate overthrowing of the legitimate government.”

What a loser. Not sure if he's serious or not, but for sure the worst president in the world. His saving grace is he got Crimea back. He betrayed NAF by forcing them to sign Minsk agreements. NAF could have taken Kiev had Putin supplied them with arms and used air strikes to demolish the Ukrainian army.

He is Russias president, not of some newly created respublics. He is acting in the interest of Russia

He has not acted in Russia's interest, either deliberately or due to incompetence. He lost Ukraine to US orchestrated coup and he talks about cooperation with the US which is Russia's #1 enemy. If he cannot do a good job as Russia's president, then he should step down and let someone else do this job.

Regular wrote:

ultron wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From Putin

http://www.rt.com/news/316687-putin-interview-sovereignty-ukraine/

Putin: All countries should respect Ukraine’s sovereignty

The sovereignty of all states, including Ukraine, should be respected, Russian President Vladimir Putin told CBS’s ‘60 Minutes,’ stressing that he knows “for sure” that the US was involved in the ouster of President Yanukovich in 2014.

Speaking to veteran journalist Charlie Rose, Putin said that Russia respects the sovereignty of Ukraine, adding that “at no time in the past, now or in the future has or will Russia take any part in actions aimed at overthrowing the legitimate government.”

He added that Moscow “would like other countries to respect the sovereignty of other states, including Ukraine. Respecting the sovereignty means preventing coups, unconstitutional actions and illegitimate overthrowing of the legitimate government.”

What a loser. Not sure if he's serious or not, but for sure the worst president in the world. His saving grace is he got Crimea back. He betrayed NAF by forcing them to sign Minsk agreements. NAF could have taken Kiev had Putin supplied them with arms and used air strikes to demolish the Ukrainian army.

He is Russias president, not of some newly created respublics. He is acting in the interest of Russia

Actually Putin has delivered a strong message to the West. He meant that, Russia is doing things by laws and rules, while Western politicians do things by violation of rules.

Not a good news for Porkie

http://www.rt.com/news/316770-netherlands-petition-ukraine-referendum/

450,000 sign Dutch petition urging govt not to sign Ukraine economic pact

Fed up with the Dutch government’s policies, the people of the Netherlands are taking matters into their own hands. They have signed a petition in their droves, which under Dutch law will force The Hague to hold a referendum on whether to sign an EU Association Agreement with Ukraine.

A satirical news website called GeenStijl has managed to collect over 450,000 signatures to force the Netherlands to hold a non-binding referendum concerning the EU’s planned association agreement with Kiev. Under Dutch law, any petition that gains more than 300,000 is enough to trigger such a vote.

"YOU did it, out of love for democracy in the Netherlands and Europe, and to send a signal to The Hague and Brussels," a statement on the website read, as cited by Reuters. It is likely that if the referendum is held, it will take place when the Netherlands holds the presidency of the European Union, which starts in January.

Strelkov made comment on what Putin's speech at UN means for Donbass. It has been transcribed so anybody can use translator to read it. Also a photo of the original post so it can be seen it is a proper transcription. I'm not going to translate it all, only briefly say that Strelkov says that VSN is weakened and can only conduct defensive operations, and Basurin admitted this in an interview earlier, even going as far as saying that the occupied territory of DNR/LNR cannot be liberated. But Strelkov goes further and says that in event of major ukrops offensive, then VSN could only hold for a few days or maybe a week before collapsing. He is saying that Donbass has been sacrificed for Syria and that there will be Russian "boots on the ground". However, Strelkov does say that it is not to late to recover the situation in Donbass, but he is clearly very gloomy about this.
http://chervonec-001.livejournal.com/905829.html

The entire speech, English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q13yzl6k6w0

Make of it what you will, we have our own ideas of his statements.

Khepesh wrote:Strelkov made comment on what Putin's speech at UN means for Donbass. It has been transcribed so anybody can use translator to read it. Also a photo of the original post so it can be seen it is a proper transcription. I'm not going to translate it all, only briefly say that Strelkov says that VSN is weakened and can only conduct defensive operations, and Basurin admitted this in an interview earlier, even going as far as saying that the occupied territory of DNR/LNR cannot be liberated. But Strelkov goes further and says that in event of major ukrops offensive, then VSN could only hold for a few days or maybe a week before collapsing. He is saying that Donbass has been sacrificed for Syria and that there will be Russian "boots on the ground". However, Strelkov does say that it is not to late to recover the situation in Donbass, but he is clearly very gloomy about this.
http://chervonec-001.livejournal.com/905829.html

What? I thought they were saying how well armed the Novo forces were, and how they have around 30,000 men and another 30,000 reserve, and all these equipment and what not. So how would they be in worst condition than before, when they had time to dig in, build up any defenses and train the troops? Russia hasnt stopped the humantarian support and pretty sure novorussia has the money and facilities to make the ammunitions. Add to that, Putin didnt say anything different than before other than respecting territory of Ukraine, and other countries should think about its meaning (he is regarding the color revolutions which he made quite clear).

sepheronx wrote:

What? I thought they were saying how well armed the Novo forces were, and how they have around 30,000 men and another 30,000 reserve, and all these equipment and what not. So how would they be in worst condition than before, when they had time to dig in, build up any defenses and train the troops? Russia hasnt stopped the humantarian support and pretty sure novorussia has the money and facilities to make the ammunitions.  Add to that, Putin didnt say anything different than before other than respecting territory of Ukraine, and other countries should think about its meaning (he is regarding the color revolutions which he made quite clear).

What Strelkov and Basurin say does not necessarily indicate reality, but they have said what they have said so we listen and try to decipher the meaning. What the people of Donbass want to know is at what stage they become an independant state or a part of Russia. Minsk 2 and the words of any politician make no space for either of these two outcomes, which are the only outcomes acceptable to the people of Donbass. Minsk 2 is not independance, so everytime it is mentioned as being the only way forward, then hearts sink. If Minsk 2 means something that is not written and remains unsaid, but would be acceptable to the people of Donbass, then these semantics and diplomatic games should stop because it seems at face value that Donbass will only ever be a part of Ukraine and all the deaths in vain. There is an opinion that Putin should at least make some statement, even cryptic, that re-assures them they will never be part of Ukraine, but nothing, it simply has to be assumed that Donbass will not be merged, and belief in this assumption becomes increasingly difficult.

It will take a long time and effort till they get the recognition from Russia. Abkazia and S.Ossetia fought for a very long time (early/mid 90's till 2008) to gain independence. Russia will continue to help unnoficially and through humantarian aid. I imagine others are definately still donating equipment and such. Plus Novorussia does have an economy so they will use that money as well.

Strelkov has been a nobody for a while so I dont think his words have much weight, especially for his not so good view of Putin after he was forced back.

Not claiming to know better than others here, but how credible is the source relaying what apparently Strelkov said, is there a video of Strelkov saying those things?

As for VVP, have listened to his speech earlier today. From memory (not his exact words of course, but imo that seems the gist of it) he said two things regarding Uraine, first that basically the current government is the result of a foreign backed coup (read, US & cronies), secondly that the wishes and choices of the Donbass peoples must be respected. He also said that Russia will never aim to overthrow a legitimate government. But, is Ukraine's government legitimate?   Everything was a diplomatic dialect of course, but all that can be interpreted in many ways, which probably is the whole point.

Still though, i do clearly remember when he said last year i think that Russia has no further territorial interests in Ukraine. What does that really means, i don't know. Maybe this mean Donbass can't be a part of Russia, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to secure it's autonomy, de facto or not from the rest of Ukraine. Others pointed out that perhaps one possible goal (if achievable) is to have an autonomous Donbass, but still nominally part of Ukraine, to be able to control it's "direction" so to speak, the back-up plan being Donbass independence if the rest of the Orcland cannot be stopped to become a NATO base.

franco wrote:

Khepesh wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

What? I thought they were saying how well armed the Novo forces were, and how they have around 30,000 men and another 30,000 reserve, and all these equipment and what not. So how would they be in worst condition than before, when they had time to dig in, build up any defenses and train the troops? Russia hasnt stopped the humantarian support and pretty sure novorussia has the money and facilities to make the ammunitions.  Add to that, Putin didnt say anything different than before other than respecting territory of Ukraine, and other countries should think about its meaning (he is regarding the color revolutions which he made quite clear).

What Strelkov and Basurin say does not necessarily indicate reality, but they have said what they have said so we listen and try to decipher the meaning. What the people of Donbass want to know is at what stage they become an independant state or a part of Russia. Minsk 2 and the words of any politician make no space for either of these two outcomes, which are the only outcomes acceptable to the people of Donbass. Minsk 2 is not independance, so everytime it is mentioned as being the only way forward, then hearts sink. If Minsk 2 means something that is not written and remains unsaid, but would be acceptable to the people of Donbass, then these semantics and diplomatic games should stop because it seems at face value that Donbass will only ever be a part of Ukraine and all the deaths in vain. There is an opinion that Putin should at least make some statement, even cryptic, that re-assures them they will never be part of Ukraine, but nothing, it simply has to be assumed that Donbass will not be merged, and belief in this assumption becomes increasingly difficult.

IMO Putin supports the integrity of the Ukrainian state knowing full well that Kiev cannot not make the necessary compromises to maintain it. A win-win with Russian pushing for Ukrainian state integrity while Kiev destroys it. Western people aren't stupid and changes will come, it is already obvious even to foreign Maiden supporters and backers that there was minimum change and it is even sliding into a worse situation. Not what the people of Donbas want to hear but time will make a difference. Meanwhile their forces are strong enough to prevent a defeat but not strong enough to attack.    

I imagine their forces are even strong enough to attack.  As long as they keep up the same guerrilla tactics, they will win.  Manpower isn't everything and even then, Ukraine's forces are still quite small as they have trouble getting people and their equipment is still garbage or being sold off for someone to fill their pockets.  Add in, other regions are not stable so they know they cannot concentrate all in eastern Ukraine.  With the Russian advisers who have trained so many of the Novorussian forces, I imagine they have more than enough to strike.  But when/if they ever do, they have to wait for Ukraines forces to strike.  Once you are bunkered down and well hidden, you can devastate the forces and then when the enemy forces are retreating, you can strike and then take over. They may not be able to take and hold any major cities, but I imagine they will have no problems with neighboring villages.

They really need to take control of their borders as well, away from Ukraines border guards.

mack8 wrote:Not claiming to know better than others here, but how credible is the source relaying whst apparently Strelkov said, is there a video of Strelkov saying those things?

As for VVP, have listened to his speech earlier today. From memory (not his exact words of course, but imo that seems the gist of it) he said two things regarding Uraine, first that basically the current government is the result of a foreign backed coup (read, US & cronies), secondly that the wishes and choices of the Donbass peoples must be respected. He also said that Russia will never aim to overthrow a legitimate govrenment. But, is Ukraine's government legitimate?   Everything was a diplomatic dialect of course, but all that can be interpreted in many ways, which probably is the whole point.

Still though, i do clearly remember when he said last year i think that Russia has no further territorial interests in Ukraine. What does that really means, i don't know. Maybe this mean Donbass can't be a part of Russia, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to secure it's autonomy, de facto or not from the rest of Ukraine. Other pointed out that perhaps one possible goal (if achievable) is to have an autonomous Donbass, but still nominally part of Ukraine, to be able to control it's "direction" so to speak, the back-up plan being Donbass independence if the rest of the Orcland cannot be stopped to become a NATO base.

Russia had no problem giving both South Ossetia and Abkhazia independence from Georgia. They will recognize Novorussia if it gets bad enough. As well, I don't think Putin does indeed recognize the current politicians in Ukraine as legitimate as he did clearly state that both the current government got in through none democratic means and that colored revolutions are not legitimate.

Yats calls on UN to cancel Russia's veto power.

Erk wrote:Yats calls on UN to cancel Russia's veto power.

They cant do that. So Ukraine is puffing hot air.

franco wrote:

Khepesh wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

What? I thought they were saying how well armed the Novo forces were, and how they have around 30,000 men and another 30,000 reserve, and all these equipment and what not. So how would they be in worst condition than before, when they had time to dig in, build up any defenses and train the troops? Russia hasnt stopped the humantarian support and pretty sure novorussia has the money and facilities to make the ammunitions.  Add to that, Putin didnt say anything different than before other than respecting territory of Ukraine, and other countries should think about its meaning (he is regarding the color revolutions which he made quite clear).

What Strelkov and Basurin say does not necessarily indicate reality, but they have said what they have said so we listen and try to decipher the meaning. What the people of Donbass want to know is at what stage they become an independant state or a part of Russia. Minsk 2 and the words of any politician make no space for either of these two outcomes, which are the only outcomes acceptable to the people of Donbass. Minsk 2 is not independance, so everytime it is mentioned as being the only way forward, then hearts sink. If Minsk 2 means something that is not written and remains unsaid, but would be acceptable to the people of Donbass, then these semantics and diplomatic games should stop because it seems at face value that Donbass will only ever be a part of Ukraine and all the deaths in vain. There is an opinion that Putin should at least make some statement, even cryptic, that re-assures them they will never be part of Ukraine, but nothing, it simply has to be assumed that Donbass will not be merged, and belief in this assumption becomes increasingly difficult.

IMO Putin supports the integrity of the Ukrainian state knowing full well that Kiev cannot not make the necessary compromises to maintain it. A win-win with Russian pushing for Ukrainian state integrity while Kiev destroys it. Western people aren't stupid and changes will come, it is already obvious even to foreign Maiden supporters and backers that there was minimum change and it is even sliding into a worse situation. Not what the people of Donbas want to hear but time will make a difference. Meanwhile their forces are strong enough to prevent a defeat but not strong enough to attack.    

This

You guys should take note, this is the way politics works.

sepheronx wrote:It will take a long time and effort till they get the recognition from Russia. Abkazia and S.Ossetia fought for a very long time (early/mid 90's till 2008) to gain independence.  Russia will continue to help unnoficially and through humantarian aid.  I imagine others are definately still donating equipment and such.  Plus Novorussia does have an economy so they will use that money as well.

Strelkov has been a nobody for a while so I dont think his words have much weight, especially for his not so good view of Putin after he was forced back.

The situation is not the same. Abkhazia and South Ossetia prevent Georgia from becoming a NATO country. Crimea already accomplishes that task in Ukraine. There is no need for Donbas. Putin never ever never ever never ever never ever planned any uprising in Kharkov, Odessa, Donbas, and in fact helped Ukraine put them down.

Poroshenko has no need for the third of Donbas NAF holds. Poroshenko already realized his dream of becoming president. Why would he risk his life by fighting a war? Why would Zackarchenko fight for the rest of Donbas? He already has his own fiefdom in Donetsk. He has all he ever wanted. Neither side wishes to fight again. There is no need for either side to start the war again.

mack8 wrote:Not claiming to know better than others here, but how credible is the source relaying what apparently Strelkov said, is there a video of Strelkov saying those things?

Chervonec is credible, even if some do not like his politics...
His message was a transcription of what "Kotych" who is Strelkov, posted on "Antikvariat" so we know it is genuine.

franco wrote:

IMO Putin supports the integrity of the Ukrainian state knowing full well that Kiev cannot not make the necessary compromises to maintain it. A win-win with Russian pushing for Ukrainian state integrity while Kiev destroys it. Western people aren't stupid and changes will come, it is already obvious even to foreign Maiden supporters and backers that there was minimum change and it is even sliding into a worse situation. Not what the people of Donbas want to hear but time will make a difference. Meanwhile their forces are strong enough to prevent a defeat but not strong enough to attack.    

In the opinion polls before Odessa and the beginning of the war waged by Kiev against Donbass, it was seen to be a general feeling of wanting real autonomy within Ukraine, not specifically wanting to be part of Russia, tho of course the mood music was set by the troops driving thro Rostov towards the border that Donbass would become part of Russia very soon, and is one of the factors that meant in places like Kharkov there was not an uprising as they thought Russia was coming to them. This is often overlooked as it is inconvenient in the narrative of a certain faction. However, after thousands of deaths and massive destruction, the mood of the people is that they will never be part of any Ukraine in any form, particulary a Ukraine that includes Galicia. So, when they hear that Ukraine will remain with it's current legally recognized borders, this goes down like a lead zeppelin with the people, who are tired of the games of politicians and their egos. I know how politics work, people around the world know how politics works, and many don't like it and don't like being played for fools. The effete snobs from the world of "partners" "equality" "diversity" and all the rest of that type of garbage may think it to great to play games and clink glasses with the enemy, others, particulary those on the front line don't think it great at all. What people want is some concrete sign that all will end good, not rumors of Surkov being in Donbass, or that Putin may or may not have winked after saying something. Let these people actualy say something that people want to hear, not what Obama wants to hear.

Azarov slammed Porkie, commented that Porkie's words are bullshit and are a humiliation for Ukraina.

http://vn.sputniknews.com/politics/20150928/723994.html

Translation from Vietnamese wrote:Azarov: Poroshenko's speech at United Nations General Assembly is a humiliation for Ukraina.

The specch of Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko at UN General Assembly at New York is completely deceitful and is a complete humiliation for Ukraina - ex-Ukr Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said.

"Throughout the history of the UN, none of our delegations had ever said any meaningless and terrible words, or any complete deceitful contents which humiliate our country which is one of the creators of the United Nations. By the way I have to notify, that probably Poroshenko might not even remember that”, — Mr. Azarov commented.

For the speech of Porkie: http://en.censor.net.ua/news/353793/as_a_result_of_russias_treacherous_aggression_thousands_of_people_killed_poroshenkos_speech_at_un_general