PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

All of the missiles the French launched were successful. The ones you are talking about were never launched so he wasn't lying.

Isos wrote:Rafale with weapons is not stealthier than j-20. Why could it attack china that deploys permanently antistealth radr, s-300/400 and tens of different frigates and destroyers and awacs on its coast while chinese navy couldn't attack french navy because of 4 rafale in the air ?

I am the first to say China doesn't produce state of art equipment and tgey try to copy and mix western and russian weapons but they have a lot of good and some very good tools, specially from ryssia, to defend themselves and they have the advantage of number near their shores.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Isos wrote:Rafale with weapons is not stealthier than j-20. Why could it attack china that deploys permanently antistealth radr, s-300/400 and tens of different frigates and destroyers and awacs on its coast while chinese navy couldn't attack french navy because of 4 rafale in the air ?

I am the first to say China doesn't produce state of art equipment and tgey try to copy and mix western and russian weapons but they have a lot of good and some very good tools, specially from ryssia, to defend themselves and they have the advantage of number near their shores.

You just assume that a French action against China would be close to their shores.  The most likely conflict would be at the edge of the Nine Dash Line which is thousands of kilometres from the Mainland.  There are very few Chinese aircraft that can operate that far from their bases especially with their rudimentary refueling capabilities.  The first target would be the atoll airbase to limit their ability to operate far out in the South China Sea.  With that eliminated the threat would be reduced to H-6 Badgers and a few aircraft that could be aerial refueled.  The J-20 is not an aircraft of naval aviation nor is it designed to engage naval targets.  At best it could be used against the Rafale that even with a weapons load-out is no more than 1m^2 in any aspect, not to mention the Spectra which is far beyond anything China knows how to overcome.  The J-20 is only LO from the front, as soon as a second radar gets an angle on it the game is over.  The French will have radars from many angles providing coverage.  

I do not take into account the Su-35 into the Chinese defence equation because the main purpose of it is for them to tear it down and reverse engineer its radar, engines and flight controls.  Only if they commit to a follow on order would it be likely they intend to deploy it into combat.  They bought the Kilos to reverse engineer and now all of them sit idle, they never intended to use it or pay us to keep them maintained.  

Actually I remember reading a story by a US submarine captain... he was entering a Soviet port having a sneaky look around in a place where he was not supposed to be... they forced him to surface and he was expecting a prison cell and an huge international incident... he didn't say how he was forced to the surface but I suspect it was a group of depth charges at safe distances and the threat of them at not so safe distances.

GarryB wrote:

Actually in New Caledonia the French have a nice setup... lots of poor natives to work the nickle mines which is used in batteries, for minimum wage and they live in squalor while the white french wealthy make up a marginal majority that have nice houses, tennis courts etc.

The French are deadly afraid that a referendum that calls for independence might lead to China coming in and offering the natives a much better deal where they aren't living in ghettos in their own country mining wealth for france.

Sadly the other colonial powers in the region like Australia and New Zealand have jumped on the anti china bandwagon to support the frogs.

Isos wrote: Well if it is like attacking something chinese can't protect then chinese j-15 and its destroyers could attack french assests in the pacific when the carrier and the frigates are no more there. Their new nuclear sub is suppose to have VLS with land attack cruise missiles. It could even attack the carrier when it's not expecting an attack. And tgey build their ships very fast and in big numbers.

The only country that could really attack china is US

Vladimir79 wrote:

Isos wrote: Well if it is like attacking something chinese can't protect then chinese j-15 and its destroyers could attack french assests in the pacific when the carrier and the frigates are no more there. Their new nuclear sub is suppose to have VLS with land attack cruise missiles. It could even attack the carrier when it's not expecting an attack. And tgey build their ships very fast and in big numbers.

The only country that could really attack china is US

The PLAN could send surface action groups to Tahiti or New Caledonia to cripple their basing and harass supply lines but you are missing something.  The entire French AF will be mobilised in the event of a shooting war with China.  There will be all available squadrons of Rafale, M2000 and ATL2 MP defending those islands and the Chinese would have no air cover with the withdrawal of the J-15.  Even if they could field all of their J-15s to attack New Caledonia the French could easily have twice as many and more advanced aircraft based there, not to mention the employment of SAMP-T to defend those bases and hundreds of air launched Exocets to sink anything coming.  There is also the case of French diplomacy which made them many friends in the region that would allow them to base in other areas.  Not to mention Australia who would likely come to the aid of France if China is getting so close to their shores, maybe Singapore and Malaysia would join.  French SSNs could put such a hurt on Chinese SAGs I doubt they would even get that far before turning back.  

Isos wrote:


I don't think lot of countries in asia would dare to join an attack on china.

What if it is the same scenario but with russia insead of china ?

Isos wrote:I was thinking about a scenario of french navy attacking a russian main base like northern fleet. No NATO help only french navy.

How new yasen and older akula compare against french subs and the CdG ?

But thanks for the analyze.

SAMP-T is little bit overestimated in your scenario. First the ground radar for them is not at the level of naval ones. And I saw on a french forum where there are few serious guys where they said most of the VLS are empty of aster missiles and they have bought less missile than there are launchers. It also has no capabilities against high flying missiles like kh-22 or kinzhal.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote: HOW DO INDIAN SUBS COMPARE?

i think your Kilos are the same as the Chinese ones but you actually bought the missile package.  Those are being replaced by the Kalvari which is far better than anything China has.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

They can mission kill CVNs by disabling/sinking their escorts - w/o them, a CVN is a sitting duck & won't be able to come close enough to use its fighter-bombers.
China could hit French islands with her conventional armed IC/SLBMs, no need to use A/SLCMs & a CBG that far. Australia & NZ may remain neutral or even help- their economies depend on PRC to a large degree + France pissed them off both with her nuclear testing there. Why should they care if China liberate/take those colonies over? The bases in Hawaii won't be much more threatened than they r now, & the continental USA is too far away & in the long run, all may benefit from it.

Why would Australia or New Zealand care if China takes New Caledonia? I think the answer would be obvious. It is within easy striking distance of their largest population centres. If China has expanded that far it is pretty clear what the next step is. The Australian defence posture is tailored to countering Chinese aggression, they don't train with them, they don't trust them and are preparing for a Chinese expansionist policy. It would be like Imperial Japan all over again, they wouldn't sit and let it happen.

Isos wrote:

And they are Japan's ally which destroyed them like 80 years ago ... Not really credible.

Australia is US puppet. They do what US say.

Japan and germany were easily adopted by "allies" as allies just because US needed to contain communists and they forgot their genocide very fast. It's easy to say "nazi" germany and "imperial" japan, the reality is that nazis and their vision of life and japan and their empror were supported by their people.

They are not better than chinese in term of expension. Today NZ and Australia cares about china but tmr it will be again Japan and probably US once they will need more "ressources".

The US always saved the French ass and they always will.

Isos wrote:

The US always saved the French ass and they always will.

Not really. WW2 they did nothing. They even wanted to occupy france with british. In 2003 they attack economicaly france because of the veto for gulf war.

Anyway I was talking about pacific and australian that forget that 80 years ago they were killed by their today allies which are still racists and are becoming "imperial" again.

China doesn't seem interesed by Australia.

Chinese Australians are one of the largest groups of Overseas Chinese people, forming the largest Overseas Chinese community in Oceania. Per capita, Australia has more people of Chinese ancestry than any country outside Asia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Australians

The Divine Eagle UAV expected to provide an early warning line to detect threats to China’s airspace, like cruise missiles and stealth bombers, as well as be able to take on such missions as hunting for aircraft carriers in the open waters of the Pacific.
https://defence-blog.com/news/huge-unmanned-aerial-vehicle-spotted-at-chinese-production-facility.html

Tsavo Lion wrote:
Even with emission control in place, a French CSG in the Indian Ocean will be lit like a Christmas tree on its way to the W. Pac/SC Sea- these UAVs based in Pakistan or Sri Lanka (not to mention Cambodia, Hainan & SCS islands) will spot it before they can be shot down. Neither France nor the US have any suitable icebreakers to sail it across the N. Pole/NSR; Russia won't provide hers even if paid for it. Btw: New stealth bomber spotted in China
https://defence-blog.com/news/new-stealth-bomber-spotted-in-china.html
In a few years, they'll have a full nuclear triad.

Combat radius: >1,852 km (>1,000 nmi) on penetration mission with two CFTs (2,300 L), three tanks (5,700 L), two SCALP-EG and two MICA AAMs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Specifications

Combat radius: around 1,500 km (932 mi; 810 nmi)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-35#Specifications_(Su-35S)

Combat radius: around 1,500 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-11#Specifications_(J-11A)

Range: 3,000 km (1,900 mi; 1,600 nmi)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKK#Specifications_(Su-30MKK)

Combat radius: 1,760 km (950 nm, 1,100 mi with one in-flight refueling (estimated), 900 km without refueling (estimated)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_JH-7#Specifications_(JH-7)

Combat radius: 1,800 km (970 nm, 1,100 mi)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_H-6#Specifications_(H-6)

Tsavo Lion wrote:Look up the links in my earlier post: their CVN won't fit into it. Evn if it did, what is to prevent Chinese SSNs to ambush it entering/exiting it or Gibraltar (ChG is based in Toulon)?

The PLAN is expected to induct a total of six boats of both variants, According to the Office of Naval Intelligence:
The Shang-class SSN’s initial production run stopped after only two hulls that were launched in 2002 and 2003. After nearly 10 years, China is continuing production with four additional hulls of an improved variant, the first of which was launched in 2012. These six total submarines will replace the aging Han-class SSN on nearly a one-for-one basis in the next several years. Following the completion of the improved Shang SSN, the PLA(N) will progress to the Type 095 SSN, which may provide a generational improvement in many areas such as quieting and weapon capacity.
Based on open source intelligence, one Type 095 submarine has been completed with two more under construction. The PLAN is expected to build a total of five Type 095 subs, which may be used as underwater escorts for future PLA carrier strike groups.
https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/image-may-confirm-advanced-anti-ship-capability-of-chinas-type-093-submarine/

Compared to the Type 093 SSN, the Type 095 SSN will include new noise reduction measures, like an integrated electric propulsion system and possibly a shaftless rim drive, single hull, and electronic noise cancellation. CSIC is also working on a separate 'quiet' submarine project, presumably to be built at its Wuhan conventional submarine shipyard. This submarine is presumably quieter than the air-independent propulsion (AIP) Type 039B Yuan submarine; it'll likely have quieting measures like a single hull, a new AIP system, and lithium-ion batteries. A new generation of Chinese submarines could help the PLAN remedy its historic technologic disadvantage against the submarines forces of the American and Japanese navies. https://www.popsci.com/china-nuclear-submarine-aircraft-carrier-leak#page-5

Tsavo Lion wrote:

New Caledonia isn't worth a naval war with France. But if the FN comes to SC Sea & starts a war, their Pacific islands may get hit by BMs & SLCMs, sending tourists to other destinations & making them even more of liability agitating for independence.