Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

Singular_Transform wrote:

Nomad5891 wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Not sabotage, just good old low grade workmanship and poor supervision

So your confidence that Russian workers are monkeys beats your suspicion of American sabotage as being the cause.

Is that because Russians are idiots or Americans are pure and innocent and would never consider such deception or evil act?

Personally it is much easier to imagine an incompetent / tired / badly trained worker doing a mistake and then covering it up, than american astronaut ninjas with space drills run rampant (and undetected) arround the Russian sector of the ISS, drilling holes as they please.

And anyways drilling a hole in the wall that keeps you alive in outer space would be the dumbest sabotage done ever. So are you saying american astronauts are idiots?

The USA willing to go great length to sabotage the IRanian, German, Russian,Notrh Korean, Japanese and so selected military / goverment programs, with tools ranging from missinformation, supporting /creating internatl political movement, simple bribery.


Why you think there is a difference between leting the IMF to give loans to Ukraine after deffaulting the Russian goverment bonds and making simple sabotages in aerospace indsutry that has the same magnitude of financial loss, and the space thingy cost only few million , compared to the 100 millions of the ukrainan case example ?

No need for USA to sabotage Russia Space program by drilling holes in the ISS...wtf. And why would they? Russian space program is just a slim shadow of Soviet's one both in terms of budget, ambition, reached goals and actual developments. Plus they can do it much more elegantly if they needed to- by stopping any USA made components flying on russian made rockets and Russie will be done, at least for quite a while.

But again why would americans do it? Their dominance in space is thretened only by China at this stage.

Nomad5891 wrote:

No need for USA to sabotage Russia Space program by drilling holes in the ISS...wtf. And why would they? Russian space program is just a slim shadow of Soviet's one both in terms of budget, ambition, reached goals and actual developments. Plus they can do it much more elegantly if they needed to- by stopping any USA made components flying on russian made rockets and Russie will be done, at least for quite a while.

But again why would americans do it? Their dominance in space is thretened only by China at this stage.

Space program=ICBM program=military aerospace industry.


And you can ask the same about many thing, including the Nord stream, IRan sanctions and so on.

No one of them makes sense.

GarryB wrote:

Not sabotage, just good old low grade workmanship and poor supervision

So your confidence that Russian workers are monkeys beats your suspicion of American sabotage as being the cause.

Is that because Russians are idiots or Americans are pure and innocent and would never consider such deception or evil act?

Russian workers at Roskosmos have a well documented track record of doing stupid shit and then avoiding responsibility even if it meant risking people's lives stretching all the way back to Soviet era

American astronauts don't have a track record of sneaking out the ISS with a power drill

Personally it is much easier to imagine an incompetent / tired / badly trained worker doing a mistake and then covering it up, than american astronaut ninjas with space drills run rampant (and undetected) arround the Russian sector of the ISS, drilling holes as they please.

Yeah, except these workers work in teams and supervisors should be checking work as well so for this to be a fucking idiot who doesn't know his ass from a drill bit I would think he would have been noticed before and already removed from the job.

Americans spend a lot of money on sabotage at every level on everything... the nearby drill bit damage suggests they might have had the drill behind their back when doing this all sneaky sneaky.

And anyways drilling a hole in the wall that keeps you alive in outer space would be the dumbest sabotage done ever. So are you saying american astronauts are idiots?

There will be plenty of Americans there that will never set foot on the ISS, and yes they are idiots too.

Look at how the US has destroyed WADA and FIFA and OPCW and the IAEA... for most of the 1990s and 2000s the IAEA was a personal tool of the US trying to pin down the location of Saddam Hussein so they could murder him... damaging Russias reputation is no problem at all...

No need for USA to sabotage Russia Space program by drilling holes in the ISS...wtf. And why would they?

Revenge for losing two shuttles... it is like election meddling.... no evidence but Russia is to blame...

Russian space program is just a slim shadow of Soviet's one both in terms of budget, ambition, reached goals and actual developments.

Yet managed to get crews to the ISS at a time when the US had no other alternative.

Plus they can do it much more elegantly if they needed to- by stopping any USA made components flying on russian made rockets and Russie will be done, at least for quite a while.

Wrong... US components have not been available to the Russians for 5 years at least.

Russian workers at Roskosmos have a well documented track record of doing stupid shit and then avoiding responsibility even if it meant risking people's lives stretching all the way back to Soviet era

Russian? More likely Ukrainian or other disgruntled nurk.

American astronauts don't have a track record of sneaking out the ISS with a power drill

American Astronauts are mostly ex USAF personnel and likely have more babies blood on their hands than the average successful serial killer.

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Not sabotage, just good old low grade workmanship and poor supervision

So your confidence that Russian workers are monkeys beats your suspicion of American sabotage as being the cause.

Is that because Russians are idiots or Americans are pure and innocent and would never consider such deception or evil act?

Russian workers at Roskosmos have a well documented track record of doing stupid shit and then avoiding responsibility even if it meant risking people's lives stretching all the way back to Soviet era

American astronauts don't have a track record of sneaking out the ISS with a power drill

It is true for every plant, hence the reason of multiple check/tests of the same feature/paramter in the aerospace industry.


Why you think it was an USA astronaut ?

It is easier to spend few 100k of $ by the CIA to hire a person in the capcule assembply.

Singular_Transform wrote:Why you think it was an USA astronaut ?

It is easier to spend few 100k of $ by the CIA to hire a person in the capcule assembply.

Of course, I don't know why people need to come up with cartoonish explanations when there are enough underpaid workers ready for extra income and, as we see in this forum, enough malcontents ready to prove how shitty Russia is. They are low hanging fruit for any foreign power to pick...

LMFS wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:Why you think it was an USA astronaut ?

It is easier to spend few 100k of $ by the CIA to hire a person in the capcule assembply.

Of course, I don't know why people need to come up with cartoonish explanations when there are enough underpaid workers ready for extra income and, as we see in this forum, enough malcontents ready to prove how shitty Russia is. They are low hanging fruit for any foreign power to pick...

Yeah, it would be to say the CIA do treason if NOT spending the money for sabotage.

C'mon, have you see the track record of the USA foreign actions ?

https://ria.ru/20210221/kosmos-1598440904.html

RSC Energia will spend over 260 million rubles ($3.5 million) in 2021-2022 on testing the parachute system and landing gear of the Oryol spacecraft. During the tests, the mockup will be dropped multiple times from the Mi-26 helicopter.

LMFS wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:Why you think it was an USA astronaut ?

It is easier to spend few 100k of $ by the CIA to hire a person in the capcule assembply.

Of course, I don't know why people need to come up with cartoonish explanations when there are enough underpaid workers ready for extra income and, as we see in this forum, enough malcontents ready to prove how shitty Russia is. They are low hanging fruit for any foreign power to pick...

In that case we have a clear failure of management and supervision

Guess who's fault is that? (hint: not 'merican)

PapaDragon wrote:In that case we have a clear failure of management and supervision

Guess who's fault is that? (hint: not 'merican)

Those are very cheap arguments, they do not have their workers on remote control. If someone contacts them on social networks or through acquaintances and gives some money in cryptocurrencies or offers a favour in exchange of doing some isolated job, of course it can go unnoticed.

LMFS wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:In that case we have a clear failure of management and supervision

Guess who's fault is that? (hint: not 'merican)

Those are very cheap arguments, they do not have their workers on remote control. If someone contacts them on social networks or through acquaintances and gives some money in cryptocurrencies or offers a favour in exchange of doing some isolated job, of course it can go unnoticed.

Surveillance cameras are a thing

So is prison

If they still haven't figured out who fucked around with tools then it's still a failure of management and supervision

Go through the footage, see who was around, go over bank accounts and internet history, get them in the interrogation room and start squeezing

But that would be too logical and would reveal that it wasn't sabotage, just plain old incompetence and that would limit number of excuses and we can't have that, right?

It's okay, 5 years from now everything will be perfect, the magical eternal 5 years

PapaDragon wrote:Surveillance cameras are a thing

So is prison

If they still haven't figured out who fucked around with tools then it's still a failure of management and supervision

Go through the footage, see who was around, go over bank accounts and internet history, get them in the interrogation room and start squeezing

But that would be too logical and would reveal that it wasn't sabotage, just plain old incompetence and that would limit number of excuses and we can't have that, right?

It's okay, 5 years from now everything will be perfect, the magical eternal 5 years

Every system has gaps and vulnerabilities and equally it is sure that if they suspect sabotage, they will investigate, reinforce surveillance etc. But the eternal dissatisfaction because things are not 200% perfect is definitely something I don't understand. Complex systems will always be subject to failures.

Every country has paid spyies/ agents in each other country, there are allways a few that willing to accept money for information / sabotage.


The USA is the only simple minded to think that the current state of relations justify the wasting of important resources to sabotage projects in other countries.

If it was incompetence this persons superior would notice assuming they check the work they are doing each time.

If it is something more sinister you assume they have a history of doing this sort of thing and as such a pattern would form to make it clear what they did... but it might be a one off job with one inside person... perhaps at management level operating a few operatives who cover for each other and fudge records and know which direction the cameras are pointed.

It could have been done why the object was being moved.

The very idea that every crime is solved is amusing hollywood bullshit... cases are closed, but often they just pick the black guy and arrest him... case closed.

PapaDragon wrote:
In that case we have a clear failure of management and supervision

Guess who's fault is that? (hint: not 'merican)

And that will proof ,my point ,that Russia #1 problem ,the most bigger one ,is that it face
a leadership crisis. A nation without good leader is a nation that will face rampant corruption ,
poor recruitment of employees and mangers , if the president is incompetent , he will be blind
in identifying those people that are competent and good for the job.

corruption and sabotage is an issue of bad leadership , because the job of a leader is to motivate
people to do their job right . if you have the wrong leaders in place , the president will have to micromanage everything just like putin complains he does all the time .guess what ? he is the one to blame for it.

incompetent people attract others incompetent like him. and this is why putin resignation should be
critical ,to make russia great again. The chinese president will be a thousand times better president for Russia , because he is someone highly efficient ,highly competent , he came from a farm , just like nikita krushev ,so they understand how to lead ,their people. jing ping needs to deal with 1.4 billion citizens , including terrorist muslim in the north and they do far better than russia in nation security. china is far more safer ,than russia .

The drilled hole in the russian module , this is a game changing event.. very dangerous development , because even Rogozin told , that the hole could only have been drilled in two ways , one while assembling the module on earth and the other in space.. he even mentioned that he had no doubts it was sabotage ,because there is no reason for the drilling in that place ,so someone who hates russia and their advances in space did it . so is not difficult to imagine who hates russia and could have done it. this sabotage likely was done when the cosmonauts were outside space walking. i think russia had only 2 cosmonauts in space ,instead of 3. and they took advantage when they went outside to drill their module.

What is dangerous about this sabotage ,is that the west will not stop at this attack. just like they doing with russian military base in syria , giving drone to terrorist to attack a russian base , and that only increase the frequency of their attacks.. they will increase the frequency of their attacks on cosmonauts security.. so roscomosmos better put a door with a lock in their module , so only them can enter or even better do their own space space station with china .

Asserting that obvious sabotage is Russian worker incompetence is retarded drivel. Workers at aerospace assembly plants
are not McDonald's burger flippers hired off the street. They are highly educated and thus filtered of any "incompetents".
You can't fake higher education. And Russia does not have India style academic fraud.

Western propaganda workers on the soft headed. To them all sorts of inanity is plausible because they do not have the
intellectual level, education and work experience, to understand what is involved in such cases as high level manufacturing.
You can see in the photograph I posted the quality of the seam in the metal work. Yet somehow, the professionals who
produce such results randomly drill holes because they can't tell their nose from their ass. Really plausible that.

The hole was drilled after assembly. Security cameras do not surveil the universe and the sabotage likely occurred during
transit maybe at the cosmodrome where entry to the module could be obtained before it was mounted in the payload
assembly. The quality of workers at the cosmodrome would include marginally trained ones who could be bought and sold
by yanquis for a dime. It was probably some Kazakh nazionalist loser who is trying to prove to himself that he is not
rich because of Russian occupants.

It's pretty obvious it was sabotage. Now the question is, how to prevent it from happening again and how to catch the culprits?

My only thought on this is to increase security on manufacturing, assembly shop and the transport phase. Security as in manned individuals, more cameras and ultimate punch in/swipe clocks in their respective areas. Each person is monitored in and out, also, while they are on the floor area working. Inspections as well are held daily to make sure each component is as it should.

This is very expensive and time consuming. But it really is the only way. Russia suffers from too much filth in the country and a purge is necessary but will never happen due to softness of authorities. So alternative is to increase monitoring and QC. Maybe start looking at reducing staff and increasing automation of sorts.

It's a shame such things happen. It isn't secluded to Russia. But doing the whole comparison between states is pointless. Russia needs to be held in a higher standard due to the necessity and complexity of the issues.

Now that it happened, and happened a while ago, it's time for change to happen.

This isn't a Rogozin issue like Papa makes it out to be. He just loves to hate him even though issues like this existed before him.

Instead, it's a security and intelligence issue that needs to be resolved before more issues happen.

miketheterrible wrote:It's pretty obvious it was sabotage.  Now the question is, how to prevent it from happening again and how to catch the culprits?

My only thought on this is to increase security on manufacturing, assembly shop and the transport phase.  Security as in manned individuals, more cameras and ultimate punch in/swipe clocks in their respective areas.  Each person is monitored in and out, also, while they are on the floor area working.  Inspections as well are held daily to make sure each component is as it should.

This is very expensive and time consuming. But it really is the only way.  Russia suffers from too much filth in the country and a purge is necessary but will never happen due to softness of authorities.  So alternative is to increase monitoring and QC.  Maybe start looking at reducing staff and increasing automation of sorts.

It's a shame such things happen.  It isn't secluded to Russia. But doing the whole comparison between states is pointless. Russia needs to be held in a higher standard due to the necessity and complexity of the issues.

Now that it happened, and happened a while ago, it's time for change to happen.

This isn't a Rogozin issue like Papa makes it out to be. He just loves to hate him even though issues like this existed before him.

Instead, it's a security and intelligence issue that needs to be resolved before more issues happen.

That is only part of the story.

Catch the preparators, increase the scrunity of financial transafers and similar measures.

Survivalence can't play too much role, it is next to impossible to understand what happens on the videos, or to see the details.

Russia should stop using Baikanur. Full stop. The lack of any action over this incident has diplomatic sensitivity written all over it.
Russia cannot punish Kazakhstanis since it is not like the USA that treats everyone on the planet as its serf. So if you demand that
Russia stop such incidents, then it has increase control over the equipment at every stage.

But such demands are unreasonable. They assume that such sabotage can be policed away. No human system is that
air tight, even under totalitarian conditions. The meat puppets known as humans are not clockwork devices. The reason that
the USA does not suffer from such incidents is because nobody is trying to sabotage it.

Singular_Transform wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:It's pretty obvious it was sabotage.  Now the question is, how to prevent it from happening again and how to catch the culprits?

My only thought on this is to increase security on manufacturing, assembly shop and the transport phase.  Security as in manned individuals, more cameras and ultimate punch in/swipe clocks in their respective areas.  Each person is monitored in and out, also, while they are on the floor area working.  Inspections as well are held daily to make sure each component is as it should.

This is very expensive and time consuming. But it really is the only way.  Russia suffers from too much filth in the country and a purge is necessary but will never happen due to softness of authorities.  So alternative is to increase monitoring and QC.  Maybe start looking at reducing staff and increasing automation of sorts.

It's a shame such things happen.  It isn't secluded to Russia. But doing the whole comparison between states is pointless. Russia needs to be held in a higher standard due to the necessity and complexity of the issues.

Now that it happened, and happened a while ago, it's time for change to happen.

This isn't a Rogozin issue like Papa makes it out to be. He just loves to hate him even though issues like this existed before him.

Instead, it's a security and intelligence issue that needs to be resolved before more issues happen.

That is only part of the story.

Catch the preparators, increase the scrunity of financial transafers and similar measures.

Survivalence can't play too much role, it is next to impossible to understand what happens on the videos, or to see the details.

Either ban cryptocurrency or some other method.

People more smart than me are running the show so they would have better ideas than I do.

https://www.leonarddavid.com/russias-return-to-the-moon-luna-25/


Russia’s Luna-25 Moon lander.
Credit: RSC Energia/Roscosmos


Lunar hardware undergoes testing.
Credit: RSC Energia/Roscosmos


A portion of a new geologic map of the interior of Boguslawsky crater, proposed site of the next Russian mission to the lunar surface [Ivanov et al., 2015] via NASA Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LROC) website at Arizona State University.

miketheterrible wrote:

It's pretty obvious it was sabotage.  Now the question is, how to prevent it from happening again and how to catch the culprits?

Finally we all agree in something . it was sabotage ,of someone who hates Russia.
the problem however is ,that no matter whether it was done by NASA or in earth by
scientist or security . in the end the problem continue to be a problem of leadership.

What will a true leader will do ?  he will not send their cosmonauts to any place ,that very hostile people try to sabotage their oxygen in their module.. and will call it over their ISS participation.
and will have told of the sabotage by nasa to the world media. and show the pictures of the drilling
holes.. expose the terrorism of the west. good leaders take good decisions ,bad ones ,take bad decisions.  putin cut in half his space budget ,and reduced military budget ,to help finance his olympics dreams.    Now everyone is bypassing russia in pace.  

When you have bad leadership in place ,you recruit the wrong people , people are trainned badly
,people are motivated badly ,people are supervised badly. So leadership incompetence is a big
deal ,it can destroy nations completely.. and provoke civil wars.  just one person can ruin an entire
nation , especially if he is stubborn and don't listen advices ,and surround with yes man as putin does.

Take for example this plandemic today.

It was reported in russian media that the british strain of covid19 reached Russia and infested many
people ,so how in hell that happened? aliens from space ? or tourist ?  how could that happen if russian borders were closed and tourism too?

the master chief incompetent president putin , opened travel to britain and tourist that came from there passed the new strain to russia.. so who is to blame from opening the flights from UK to Russia ?  aliens from space or putin ? it was putin responsibility to keep borders closes and tourism too until people vaccinated.. but he opened flights from UK and that created a new spike of covid19 in russia.
it was putin incompetence , putin ignorance , putin politeness , putin always trying to please their western partners ,what created the problem. fortunately russian soviet era scientist are very good and produced a vaccine , but the idiot in chief president , is always underestimating his enemies
and got the strain of britain in russia ,because that moron president decided to reopen flights to britain ,full knowing they were breaking records in virus infections.  

so you can't fix russia , if monkeys run the nation , then the nation will face problems everywhere.
putin's allow the west to finance opposition , george soros foundations was fully free operating in russia , he even allowed americans to recruit scientist in russia.     isn't that pure idiocy?
why putin allowed that for more than a decade? the west to destabilize russia and recruit opposition?  because he is really stupid . thats why. then russian gov is incredibly weak with the western paid opposition ,  you need a strong president in place to impose order on the country.

but putin show weakness and his enemies takes advantage of it.

What happened with Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s ?  remember how putin the polite ,
forgave his prison sentence ,and then first thing he do is flee russia and start a 50 billion lawsuit
against Russia government for yukos oil company ,that putin nationalized.
he even did not listen lavrov his diplomat  ,that told him to do the same and close american embassies.

As a matter of fact. there is absolutely no reason ,why russia need to have embassies of enemies
in their nation ,that are in an open proxy war declared ,because the only job of those hostile nato embassies is cause problems in russia. they even help the protesters .    and putin allows this.  

it was putin himself who told ,the us embassy was aiding terrorist in chechen war.. then why the hell he continues allowing such center of terrorism ,embassies of hostile nations to operate in russia?
he could easily setup diplomatic centers in a third country like findland ,exactly where putin and trump meet when they had to negotiate something over syria.. so what's the point of the embassies them? that he is so desperate for american tourism?  

This is embarrassing how putin soft hand and politeness and stupidity is causing damage to russia , because enemies see weakness and then take advantage of it ,encourage them to continue hostilities against russia.

Obama fire 75 russian diplomats and invade one of the russian embassies ,that was russian property.
what was putin response? invite americans diplomats ,to christmas party .  
Later the next day ,john bolton ,was making fun of putin , calling him ,a teddy bear on live television.
the american government was making fun of putin politeness, this is how bad putin is ,that enemies
make jokes of his weakness.  he told ..isn't that so cute ? and laughing .  

Russia  enemies whenever they see weakness in their president, they increase their hostilities and
their attacks.. so putin is indeed the major security threat russia face. his weakness is what motivates his enemies to disrespect russia so much . and even kill russian soldiers.

just today was watching a video ,where putin had to intervene for the salary of one scientist.
for amateurs ,that will be a great thing ,that putin micromanage every little thing in russia. but for people that understand what's going on , it speak alot of the disaster ,that is putin as a leader ,and the failure of the system he created ,in 20 years in power ,he have been unable to have competent people in place to do their job right , which is his top duties ,but also to influence society to follow his vision. And by developing russia , as if there was no war , as if is business as usual , without challenging the western business world , it make russia economy easy to damage its economy.
as is the case of oil prices , cause a lot of damage to russian budget.

my bet is ,the sabotage was done by nasa astronauts ,because rogozin asked nasa for the Psychological records of every NASA astronauts in the ISS . So he suspect it was them. today year later ,the problem of leaks still continue ,so means more sabotages happening.. it is nasa doing that.
the most likely authors of the drilling.   And if they know this ,it will be incredibly irresponsible
to send cosmonauts to the iss ,if their lives is at risk . the west are very smart when it comes to
crime and terrorism ,so they will figure out ways to kill russian cosmonauts in space to humiliate russia.

another security issue ,is that Russia shows too much ,the faces of their engineers and scientist ,that can be targeted for recruitment or assassination if they refuse ,this is how bad relations are with the anglo zionist system ,they are doing this to iran , israel is killed iranian nuclear scientist ,what makes putin believe it could not happen to them? if you put someone a strong and ambitions leader ,
similar to the chinesse president , more than half of russia problems will stop ,and security increased 10x fold. efficiency will be higher and security and quality controls too.

You have to be careful that added security measures are beneficial and just don't make everything harder.

There should be extensive logs for everything and everything needs to be properly checked and signed off at various steps of production and assembly.

Working out when it happened would be valuable so those videos showing virtual reality systems used to assist in the assembly of the T-50 could be designed to have a camera recording system built in.

The critical problem with cameras is that you are never going to sit and watch all the available video feed that is just a very very boring waste of time.

What normally happens is something is discovered... like this hole that is drilled that should not be and that triggers the people investigating the situation to start working through the available videos of the area... there might be 100 cameras with 20,000 hours of footage, but the area in question might only be visible for very short periods at very different times... so you need to go through the footage using the work sheets to determine when there should be footage and narrow your search there so you don't have to sit and watch 20,000 hours of footage.

If they are body cams the video might thrash around a bit so you can't just skip through... you need to watch it for a glimpse and you are looking for a shot of the area in question when the damage was not there and then move forward to when it appears... once you know that you start gathering all the footage from that time period to see what everyone was doing and why one worker has his camera turned off or the film wasn't handed in because the memory chip was lost or broken or had the information deleted.

American Navy pilots filming low level flights often lose tapes of their flights when they clip cable cars and kill people... I suspect other workers will do that too.

Another security feature is having work signed off before the panels are replaced and having someone check the work has been done correctly... but that slows things down and people get sloppy and just sign things off in batches to get it out of the way... but obviously the naughty person will use this to get their area signed off so the next person who opens the panel and finds parts jammed in or incorrectly fitted might get the blame or they will spend time watching videos from after you closed the panel to before the next person opens the panel and notices... of course they might be doing something else and not notice... three or four other workers might access that panel before someone notices the damage or mistake... and when asked the previous 1 or two will pass lie detector tests saying they didn't notice so person number three or four gets the blame even though they pass the lie detector test too.

Even worse what if it is sabotage and there are a dozen different criminals working together to cover themselves and try to get the talented patriots put in jail... they would probably get a bonus and medals for that.

Filling the place with cameras is a solution but the cost of just managing all those recordings and data and storing them in case they are needed... and obviously they are vulnerable to sabotage too so they need to be monitored as part of the security system so if a camera is turned off or someone is wearing the body camera backwards or there is a small piece of tape over the lens, or the camera is unplugged or simply not recording.

I have been involved in situations where they had cameras but the criminal knew they were there and didn't go anywhere near them, and obviously did not commit the crime in front of any camera. By working out when the crime took place we were able to see them in the distance cross the corner of the video, but while being able to see it was someone wandering around where they shouldn't be you couldn't tell gender let alone identify the person.