Russian special military operation in Ukraine #45

Backman wrote:
Russia cant hit anything outside of Ukraine. It is just too provocative. Who can Russia send weapons to ?

I'm suggesting that Russia arm entities that will Hit NATO outside of Ukraine. Just to give NATO a dose of their own medicine.

Backman wrote:
Any sign of British or American life in Kiev should be kalibrated. It is just a cliché I guess but all decision making centers in Kiev should be kalibrated. But I guess its not worth talking about anymore because it will never happen.

This needs to be among the priorities of the SMO. Exterminate any known NATO personnel in Ukraine, hunt them down, day and night, regardless of where they hide. Kill them all

And since occupied Kiev seems to be a favorite destination of NATO personalities, I suggest sprinkling that place with petal mines. Who knows maybe Biden will step on one in his next visit

Sprut-B wrote:New captcha  

This is pure Genius

nomadski wrote:Not sure about the truth of  " These cluster*uck munitions , will not change anything . "  Did what NATO sent so far " not change anything ? " Someone said that " if NATO stop sending weapons , that war will be over , very shortly . " These artillery shells with submunitions seem excellently capable to kill large number of troops in a big area . And sending Nukes to Iran or ...will protect those regions , but will not defeat the Nazis in Ukrs . There will be no Nuclear war . Nukes are self- limiting  . The loss of Ukrs by NATO , is not existential for them . They have far more to loose than Russia . I say Nuke them in one or two areas , where these weapons are fired from . Then deny that you did it , or that it was not  a Nuke . Just say it was  FOAB , or thunder and lightning .

Not sure how often Russia uses cluster munitions in Ukraine but with this latest retarded move by NATO Russia needs to increase the use of these weapons by no less than 10x to completely cluster F*CK NATO.

Also perhaps the time has come to build gigantic glide kits (Or Mega-Geran) to carry the heavy FOABs and lob a couple to key Ukrainian logistics and warehouse points to Obliterate new arrivals of NATO NAZI equipment

GarryB wrote:

They had them available from the beginning but the Russian forces are not using them, just like they have not used DU tank rounds either.

But of course, they do.
Multiple registered cases of Grad/Smerch delivered cluster munition being used in counter-battery fire.
They used it very early in the war against a target located in Charkov, there was a concentration of Ukrowehrmacht technicals on some stadiums surrounded by high-rise buildings. Quite a laud case.
And yes, they are using white phosphorus incendiary rounds, too.
Just in case someone will take this out from a bag as a next bogus.
I don't get this whole spin again.
The only reason that Muricans are sending it is because they are low of standard rounds - grandpa Joe said that clearly.
What is the difference if that is sub ammunition carrier or 20 000 tungsten fragments? Other than a fact that those being used by the Muricans have a quite impressive malfunction rate, and do not carry self-destructive fuze. So will cause a danger to civilians after the conflict acting like a mine or other dude ammo leftovers. In numbers.

Cluster Munitions Transfer Shows How US, Ukraine Have Grown Desperate Amid Conflict, by Ian DeMartino for Sputnikglobe.com. 07.08.2023.

On Friday, US President Joe Biden confirmed his administration would send Ukraine cluster munitions as part of a new $800 million military aid package. Cluster munitions are banned by more than 120 countries, including most NATO members.

The US' decision to deploy cluster munitions to Ukraine highlights Washington's constant "double standard" on weapons use, activist and political commentator Phil Kelly has said.

"[The transfer of cluster munitions shows] the double standards that the United States and its Western puppets engage in. We often hear the phrase international rules-based order. That has no standing in reality,” Kelly told Radio Sputnik’s Political Misfits.

“It is a meaningless phrase concocted by the United States which basically means that when other countries commit a crime, [they can] be held accountable for crimes against humanity or war crimes but we cannot because we set the rules that we operate with.”

The decision by the Biden administration shows that the situation is getting desperate for Ukraine and its NATO backers.

“The sheer lack of information we are getting about [the Ukrainian counteroffensive] shows that it has been an absolute catastrophic failure,” Kelly said. “So supplying these munitions also displays sheer desperation. [...] Europe's own arsenals are so depleted, the Salvation Army could probably march upon Paris and conquer mainland Europe without a shot being fired.”

To underline his point, Kelly pointed to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s increasing attempts to draw NATO forces into a war with Russia.

“[Ukraine] is also burning through its human resources. That's why Zelensky is not just asking for German tanks, American tanks and F-16s. He is starting to talk about sending the sons and daughters of European nations to come fight in Ukraine. They are losing a generation in a war it cannot win," Kelly said.

Kelly said that fighting a losing conflict is “great news if you are an arms manufacturer in the US, [but] it’s not such great news if you are a Ukrainian looking to attain a livable future.”

“They really are burning their future and if we are not careful we are going to be dragged into the abyss with them,” he added.

At the heart of the conflict, Kelly says, is the arrogance the West operated with after the end of the Cold War: “the West, rather than reflect and think how the world could move forward, there was a turbocharged arrogance on steroids."

“[They are] finding out that there are leaders across the world, whether that be [President] Lula [da Silva] in Brazil or President Xi [Jinping] in China, that are standing up to the arrogance and the aggressiveness of Western leaders and pushing back. So history didn’t end when the Soviet Union collapsed, the West is starting to learn this.”

Kelly pointed to increasing talk of de-dollarization and a growing desire to see the end of US hegemony around the world, adding that he hopes “that will be the lesson that will dawn upon leaders in Europe and Washington DC.”

https://sputnikglobe.com/20230707/cluster-munitions-transfer-shows-how-us-ukraine-have-grown-desperate-amid-conflict-1111734380.html

American intelligence officer revealed the reason for the transfer of cluster shells to Ukraine, 07.08.2023.

Former spy Ritter: US gives Kyiv cluster munitions because there are no others left.

NEW YORK, July 8 - RIA Novosti. The United States decided to transfer cluster munitions to Kiev because the United States did not have conventional 155-mm high-explosive shells for the Armed Forces of Ukraine - the new weapons will not bring success to the Ukrainian military on the battlefield, retired US Marine Corps intelligence officer Scott Ritter told RIA Novosti.

The United States on Friday announced a new military aid package to Ukraine, which included cluster munitions for 155mm artillery pieces.

"If you listen to the logic offered by the (Joe) Biden administration, the main reason for the transfer of these shells is that Ukraine is running out of conventional 155mm shells. Only these shells are left. So there is no strategic intent behind the use of cluster munitions," - Ritter said.

"The bottom line is that (the US for Kyiv - ed.) literally has no other artillery shells to hand over to them," he added.

The former intelligence officer explained that the 155mm M864 cluster artillery round has not been used by the US military since 2016 "because it was deemed inconsistent with the moral standards set by the United States, even though the US is not a party to the Convention on Cluster Munitions."

"We haven't used them since. So they've been in storage. And they're the only artillery shells available. They're old artillery shells," he said.

According to him, the notion that their unexploded ordnance ratio is only 1% is absurd. "When the M864s were developed they had a UXO ratio of 14%. Some improvements have been made to try to bring the ratio down to below 3%. But these systems have not received maintenance. They have been in storage for seven years. So they will have a very high unexploded ordnance ratio," he said.

“Finally, the Biden administration is claiming that these munitions are needed to help the Ukrainians gain the upper hand on the battlefield. This is a blatant lie. The M864 ammunition was designed to be what we call an assault weapon. conventional artillery fire on them. So cluster munitions were designed to cover large areas in order to neutralize these armored attacks. They are, to be fair, successful in this," Ritter said.

However, according to him, the Russian military during this period "does not carry out massive attacks with armored vehicles." “The Russians are now defending in prepared defensive positions. These shells are almost useless against Russian defensive positions. Yes, there will be losses. But the Russians would suffer much more losses from conventional high-explosive 155-millimeter shells than from cluster ones,” Ritter noted.

In his opinion, most Russian soldiers will be immune to most cluster munitions.

"Everything that is said about this now is lies and fabrications. The only reason why cluster munitions are sent to Ukraine today is that the United States simply does not have other shells for them. This is the last thing we have in our arsenals" Ritter emphasized.

According to the ex-intelligence officer, the supply of cluster munitions to Kyiv will not affect the situation on the battlefield in any way. "In fact, this will only weaken the Ukrainians, not strengthen them," he said.

At the same time, Ritter admitted that the Armed Forces of Ukraine would use cluster munitions against civilian targets, as was the case with Donetsk and Lugansk. "Here, I think, we will see an increase in deaths among the civilian population," the former intelligence officer concluded.

https://ria.ru/20230708/boepripasy-1882921434.html

Mr. Ritter is right. Cargo shells are all they have. They don't have any more hard shell stocks even after raiding their allies arsenals so they have to resort to bringing out the good stuff.

And no, DPICM is not more effective than HE shells against Russian trenches - what mandela effect bullshit are they pulling this time?

Maybe they got confused and thought the dummy first line trenches are about the sum of Russia's earthworks capabilities but the actual Russian trench networks have top cover and a multitude of dugout positions to withstand direct bombardments.

But of course, they do.
Multiple registered cases of Grad/Smerch delivered cluster munition being used in counter-battery fire.

A lot of the videos showing Russian artillery hitting Orc targets show lots of soldiers surviving because they are using single warhead rounds... if they actually were using cluster munitions then there would likely be no survivors at all... which is the irony of all this because obviously Russia has quite a lot more cluster armed weapons... not just artillery shells and aircraft delivered bombs... most of their missiles can deploy cluster munition warheads, and of course the munitions themselves are small and light and in mass production so could be used as the payload for suicide drones too...

When the UK said they would deploy DU rounds to the battlefield Russia said don't do it, and when they did Russia decided to deploy nuclear weapons to Belarus.

Russia is saying don't do it to the US ATM... what are they going to do about that that the US could possibly care about... Russian nukes deployed to Syria or Iran or Cuba or North Korea...

What is the difference if that is sub ammunition carrier or 20 000 tungsten fragments?

Standard warheads are for use against hard targets, but cluster munitions are good at killing men and it is men Russia does not want to lose.

So Russia needs to find something that will really piss the US off... but only the US because other HATO countries are not doing this...

Perhaps a Uranium export ban on the US...

I would think BMPs need a less intense version of the Kornet ATGM. While BMPs can carry Kornet and maybe some of them should a simplified/less intense form of Kornet will help BMPs destroy Western APCs, IFVs allowing the Russian MBTs to fight directly with their western counterpart.

Command detonated 30mm cannon shells with a ballistics fire computer would be the cheapest way of dealing with drones, they have Bulat, a mini missile for use against BMPs and BTRs and Kornet for heavy stuff and long range stuff, but what they really need is something that can detect things in the air... they need a LIDAR type system that will detect targets at extended ranges... even small things that can then be shot down.

Most of the time drones are not detected till seconds before impact... not good for use of a missile.

So better detection that does not give you away to sensors dozens of kms away is critical too.

"Here, I think, we will see an increase in deaths among the civilian population," the former intelligence officer concluded.

To stop civilian deaths is why Russia invaded...

I would hope more money is being poured into developing better Tank camouflage systems. Will be extremely useful in close quarter combat as well.

That alone would make Javelin useless... the fabric screens IR and the ERA underneath defeats the puny warhead that Javelin uses to penetrate thin top armour.

The irony is that this now frees Russian hands because I am sure they have a lot of munition based weapons they have been holding on to... if they were using them you can bet your arse that the US would be holding it up as an example to prove the Russians are doing it to so of course they can do it.

Any real offensive with these 40K soldiers they have trained and ready will involved heavy armoured attacks... the ideal target for Smerch rockets with cluster munition warheads with anti armour munitions...

The footage we have seen is of abandoned vehicles, but with submuntions you can hit all the vehicles at once with each 152mm shell over quite a large area...

JohninMK wrote:...U.S. National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan stated today that the Transfer of  155mm Cluster Munitions to Ukraine is Necessary due to the Increasing...

Excellent

Anything that keeps Russia from pussyfooting is great news

Polish S-125 will be easy to find. The main task of its modification was putting stationary rails on the T-55 chassis, and C&C unit on the ex-SCUD one.
And yes, those has been delivered to 404 a while ago. At least some of them.